# The dead contacting the living **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274 "2009-07-07T23:50:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/261 "2009-07-25T12:38:03Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > I don’t think **begbert2** is necessarily any more anti-spiritual than I am. The mere fact that people don’t believe every brain fart that’s thrown their direction doesn’t make them anti-spiritual. Forgive us for being skeptical when every single repeatable unbiased experiment having to do with Ouija boards has either been inconclusive or has flat-out shown them not to work. > > If I show you all six sides of a die and roll it a thousand times (getting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 every time), can you at least _begin_ to acknowledge that it might not have a seven? > > Yay! As in QM the observer changes the observed. Science has no way to measure such things, of course they fail to produce anything. I took me months to secure a valid contact on the board. I guess the “researchers” never considered that. It’s the same with most spiritual things. There is a learning curve. In a Boston hospital they are using Reika like healing processes. They teach nurses the movements and it takes months for them to feel the energy. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/262 "2009-07-25T15:06:00Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > As in QM the observer changes the observed. Science has no way to measure such things, of course they fail to produce anything. You’re throwing out terms and concepts without understanding them. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics doesn’t state or imply that looking at a cow changes it into a chicken (or looking at unconscious hand movements change them into spirits pushing around an object). It states that you can’t measure two properties of certain objects exactly at the same time (e.g., if you accurately measure the velocity of a particle, you no longer know the exact location). Another example would be when putting ice crystals under a standard laboratory microscope with high-intensity lights will melt the ice crystals. The spiritual spin you’re trying to put on this simply doesn’t exist, and doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/263 "2009-07-25T18:07:57Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > You’re throwing out terms and concepts without understanding them. > > The Heisenberg uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics doesn’t state or imply that looking at a cow changes it into a chicken (or looking at unconscious hand movements change them into spirits pushing around an object). It states that you can’t measure two properties of certain objects exactly at the same time (e.g., if you accurately measure the velocity of a particle, you no longer know the exact location). > > Another example would be when putting ice crystals under a standard laboratory microscope with high-intensity lights will melt the ice crystals. > > The spiritual spin you’re trying to put on this simply doesn’t exist, and doesn’t make any sense. No one implied that it did. Spirits do not push the planchet around. Looks like you don’t understand what it happening. I said earlier in this thread what was going on. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/264 "2009-07-25T23:06:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > No, QM is much more than that. But the observer changing the observed is one part of it. > > I don’t care what you believe. The observer changing the observed is thus: We can know WHERE a certain, oh, let’s say, an electron, OR we can know the DIRECTION it is moving in. Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle tells us that we can NOT know both at the same time. That’s pretty much it. We can speculate on the reason why you can’t know both at the same time but that would be opening up an entirely new box of cats. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/265 "2009-07-25T23:14:51Z")
sigh…on edit, DIRECTION should, of course, be VELOCITY…and what **InvisibleWombat** said. ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/266 "2009-07-25T23:18:58Z")
(ducks crossfire) Um, well, anyway… there’s a really good thread going about NDE’s over [here, on the James Randi Educational Foundation Forums.](http://http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4938362#post4938362) A Rational Exploration of NDE-Related Research. I started it, and it’s pretty cool, if I do say so myself (and I do. ) 🙂 In a recent post, I explain how the _subjective_ experience of NDE’s is indeed quantifiable on the Greyson scale, which has passed all the reliability tests that put it up there with, say, the Beck Depression Inventory. Also, it’s been established that cardiac arrest in a controlled hospital setting is the event most likely to produce ratings on the Greyson scale above a certain cutoff point which identify a subjective NDE (to differentiate it from, say, organic brain syndrome, or acute stress reactions.) This means that certain benchmarks have been set so that identifiable and definable NDE’s can be discussed as agreed-upon events, which is necessary in order to explore the complex and fascinating biology and neurology of these phenomena. Do y’all sort of see where this is going? Any kind of phenomenon must be defined in this way in order to be discussed in terms of research or controlled studies or agreed-upon facts. NDE’s absolutely can be, although any and all varieties of silliness about them can also be brought up, which is unfortunate. I don’t discount personal experiences, because they are what they are, but they are not research. The two categories should be kept far, far apart. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/267 "2009-07-25T23:34:59Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You are solidly anti-spiritual all the way. Is that supposed to be some sort of accusation? There are those of us who take pride in being anti-spiritual. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/268 "2009-07-25T23:48:07Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Is that supposed to be some sort of accusation? There are those of us who take pride in being anti-spiritual. Rather like unbeknown anti-self. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/269 "2009-07-25T23:54:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Rather like unbeknown anti-self. Whatever. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/270 "2009-07-25T23:56:09Z")
> [@Anise](#): > > (ducks crossfire) Um, well, anyway… there’s a really good thread going about NDE’s over [here, on the James Randi Educational Foundation Forums.](http://http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4938362#post4938362) A Rational Exploration of NDE-Related Research. I started it, and it’s pretty cool, if I do say so myself (and I do. ) 🙂 > > In a recent post, I explain how the _subjective_ experience of NDE’s is indeed quantifiable on the Greyson scale, which has passed all the reliability tests that put it up there with, say, the Beck Depression Inventory. Also, it’s been established that cardiac arrest in a controlled hospital setting is the event most likely to produce ratings on the Greyson scale above a certain cutoff point which identify a subjective NDE (to differentiate it from, say, organic brain syndrome, or acute stress reactions.) This means that certain benchmarks have been set so that identifiable and definable NDE’s can be discussed as agreed-upon events, which is necessary in order to explore the complex and fascinating biology and neurology of these phenomena. > > Do y’all sort of see where this is going? Any kind of phenomenon must be defined in this way in order to be discussed in terms of research or controlled studies or agreed-upon facts. NDE’s absolutely can be, although any and all varieties of silliness about them can also be brought up, which is unfortunate. I don’t discount personal experiences, because they are what they are, but they are not research. The two categories should be kept far, far apart. Tried the link, it failed, just as well. The only way you and other skeptics will know what a near death experience is to have one. Those that do are changed forever like all the rest of the experiencers are. I don’t look to science or religion to explain things any more. They are both methodologies. Lost in their own doctrines and cloistered from the realities of life. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/271 "2009-07-26T00:05:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Tried the link, it failed, just as well. The only way you and other skeptics will know what a near death experience is to have one. Those that do are changed forever like all the rest of the experiencers are. > > I don’t look to science or religion to explain things any more. They are both methodologies. Lost in their own doctrines and cloistered from the realities of life. Suse…you didn’t HAVE a near death experience…repeating that you did does not mean that you really did. No disrespect intended whatsoever but have you seen a professional for your delusions? If so, has he prescribed medication for you? If so, have you stopped taking it or something? I truly am concerned as you come off as a VERY delusional person. I know as I take meds myself for a host of long, boring conditions. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/272 "2009-07-26T00:49:25Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Tried the link, it failed, just as well. The only way you and other skeptics will know what a near death experience is to have one. Those that do are changed forever like all the rest of the experiencers are. This would only be valid if every single person who had an NDE was changed the way you said. There are lots that aren’t, so you’re obviously wrong. Oh, and you be sure and let us know when you actually have one. > [@](#): > > I don’t look to science or religion to explain things any more. They are both methodologies. Lost in their own doctrines and cloistered from the realities of life. Bullplop. You try to cite science when you think it will help you, and you deny it when you think it won’t. What do you think QM is? You spout meaningless crap about spirituality, and then slap the label ‘QM’ on it cuz you think that will give it credibility. Where do you think the credibility might come from? It comes from science, something that has a lot of credibility. You try to cite studies and call them scientific in an attempt to get credibility. Again, where would the credibility come from? Science. The studies you cite are roughly as scientific as two kids digging in the dirt with spoons, but you still try to get some real credibility off the appearance of real science. And then, when the fact that this makes you a hypocrite is pointed out to you, you go for the big denial. It’s obviously science that’s wrong, all those centuries of effort and millions of scientists working to understand the world, they can’t possibly know as much as one guy who had a bad dream. We’re using the fruits of science right now to have this conversation, it doesn’t need to prove itself. So make up your mind already, cuz this back and forth is quite tiresome. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/273 "2009-07-26T01:15:33Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > . . . the realities of life. Interesting that you’d use this phrase. I guess one man’s reality is another man’s descent into a psychotic abyss. ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/274 "2009-07-26T02:55:51Z")
I’m not sure why the link failed, but I tested this one, and it worked: [A Skeptical Exploration of NDE’s](http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=148845). Actually, the aspect of NDE’s which interests me the most is that (quality) research is beginning to suggest that some experiencers’ brains may indeed undergo neurological changes as a result of the NDE. Now, it’s important to understand that there’s nothing woo-like about this-- I can guarantee that magic elves, UFO’s, and Bigfoot are not involved! 😉 It’s so much more interesting and important than any of that. In my primary field of work and interest (PTSD and the dissociative disorders), researchers are increasingly learning that traumatic stress can and does cause profound physiological changes in the brains of both children and adults. The preliminary evidence which does show potentially _protective_ brain changes as a result of NDE’s shows them in some of the precise areas which seem to be negatively affected by PTSD (I’ve got cites for all of this if anybody wants to see them, but I do have to go to bed at some point!!) This is so exciting, because it means that information could eventually come out of all of this which could help both PTSD survivors and those with dissociative disorders. Better treatments for these populations are so desperately needed. But, even more than that… > [@](#): > > Those that do are changed forever like all the rest of the experiencers are. This is information which actually points towards one way in which this statement could literally be true (consistently measurable changes in the left temporal lobes of experiencers as compared to a control group, other information which suggests these changes happened after the NDE’s and not before, additional information about neurological correlates of “mystical experiences”, etc.). But being skeptical _about_ the available information is what got us here. There’s no other way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/275 "2009-07-26T04:25:25Z")
> [@Anise](#): > > I’m not sure why the link failed, but I tested this one, and it worked: [A Skeptical Exploration of NDE’s](http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=148845). > > Actually, the aspect of NDE’s which interests me the most is that (quality) research is beginning to suggest that some experiencers’ brains may indeed undergo neurological changes as a result of the NDE. Now, it’s important to understand that there’s nothing woo-like about this-- I can guarantee that magic elves, UFO’s, and Bigfoot are not involved! 😉 It’s so much more interesting and important than any of that. In my primary field of work and interest (PTSD and the dissociative disorders), researchers are increasingly learning that traumatic stress can and does cause profound physiological changes in the brains of both children and adults. The preliminary evidence which does show potentially _protective_ brain changes as a result of NDE’s shows them in some of the precise areas which seem to be negatively affected by PTSD (I’ve got cites for all of this if anybody wants to see them, but I do have to go to bed at some point!!) This is so exciting, because it means that information could eventually come out of all of this which could help both PTSD survivors and those with dissociative disorders. Better treatments for these populations are so desperately needed. > > But, even more than that… > This is information which actually points towards one way in which this statement could literally be true (consistently measurable changes in the left temporal lobes of experiencers as compared to a control group, other information which suggests these changes happened after the NDE’s and not before, additional information about neurological correlates of “mystical experiences”, etc.). But being skeptical _about_ the available information is what got us here. There’s no other way to do it. I have read about the changes in brain activity caused by near death experiences but never changes in the brain itself. Would you clear this up for us. I know there is a large expansion of consciousness during the experience where the perception of one’s world grows extensively. The perception changes from a basic self perception to a universal perception. That accounts for the change in personality experiencers get. For everyone, I take no drugs or prescritions at all. Feel no anger or anxiety, I live with love and compassion. I can see patterns in life most can’t, and yes I am aware of a spiritual dimension. I have no trouble contacting it when desired, this is true of most near death experiencers, and yes, if you actually have the experience you will be changed for the better and love it. No more problems, mental clarity, no fear or life or death. With the teachings of nihilism in our society today, it seems mental illness has become the norm. My web site has helped hundreds of people to find meaning again in their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/276 "2009-07-26T07:14:15Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I can see patterns in life most can’t, and yes I am aware of a spiritual dimension. I have no trouble contacting it when desired, this is true of most near death experiencers… Even given(for the purpose of this thread only, since it obviously isn’t true in real life) that near death experiencers are somehow aware of a “spiritual dimension”, why are you, a person who has never had an NDE, also aware of such a dimension? ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/277 "2009-07-26T10:44:25Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > For everyone, I take no drugs or prescritions at all. Feel no anger or anxiety, I live with love and compassion. I can see patterns in life most can’t, and yes I am aware of a spiritual dimension. I have no trouble contacting it when desired, this is true of most near death experiencers, and yes, if you actually have the experience you will be changed for the better and love it. No more problems, mental clarity, no fear or life or death. So you see things that aren’t there, including invisible dimensions and you can contact said invisible realm whenever you want to and this has made you a perfectly happy person. Right. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/278 "2009-07-26T14:34:51Z")
[quote=“lekatt, post:275, topic:502274”] I have read about the changes in brain activity caused by near death experiences but never changes in the brain itself. Would you clear this up for us. I don’t know if I can exactly clear anything up, because the possibility is based on preliminary studies, so it’s very speculative. But I"m interested in it because it’s applicable to PTSD. In this particular study, individuals who reported having had NDE’s were found to have altered temporal lobe functioning (by EEG activity) compared to a control group. Altered functioning in the _right_ temporal lobe has been found to be neurologically correlated with subjectively reported “mystical and religious experiences.” In the NDE study, however, the altered functioning was exclusively in the _left_ temporal lobe. (Britton, WB, & Bootzin, RR, 2004) That’s one of the main areas associated with abnormal functioning in PTSD, which is what really intrigued me so much about it. Is it possible that there’s something about the biological/neurological NDE experience which could somehow be isolated and reproduced, so that PTSD survivors could benefit from it? Also, NDE’s do not cause pathological dissociation in experiencers (as a whole, as measured by Greyson’s NDE scale and the Dissociative Experiences Scale). (Greyson, 2000). This is a very significant finding, because a NDE is an experience which absolutely might have been predicted to cause dissociation-- yet as a rule, it doesn’t. PTSD, on the other hand, is a dissociative disorder, and it probably will _finally_ go into the correct category in the DSM-V. Again, what can we learn from NDE’s which could benefit PTSD survivors, and those with dissociative disorders? This kind of information is needed so desperately if practitioners are ever going to have better treatment to offer than we do (which isn’t that great at present in a lot of ways). I guess you could also quantify the subjective psychological changes which NDE survivors have had (“do you feel that you’ve become more spiritual, etc.”) I don’t see any reason why this couldn’t be done in a study, but a lot of strict parameters would have to be laid down. I think I could see some ways that information could be useful, but again, it wouldn’t be proof of anything except of what people strongly tend to have subjectively experienced. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/279 "2009-07-26T15:49:23Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > So you see things that aren’t there, including invisible dimensions and you can contact said invisible realm whenever you want to and this has made you a perfectly happy person. > > Right. > > :dubious: Wrong, 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/280 "2009-07-26T16:05:39Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > My web site has helped hundreds of people to find meaning again in their lives. Your website has helped hundreds of people delude themselves with lies and childish fantasies instead of dealing with the real world. Just sayin’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274.md?page=15)