# The dead contacting the living **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274 "2009-07-07T23:50:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/281 "2009-07-26T16:24:24Z")
[quote=“Anise, post:278, topic:502274”] > [@lekatt](#): > > I have read about the changes in brain activity caused by near death experiences but never changes in the brain itself. Would you clear this up for us. > > I don’t know if I can exactly clear anything up, because the possibility is based on preliminary studies, so it’s very speculative. But I"m interested in it because it’s applicable to PTSD. In this particular study, individuals who reported having had NDE’s were found to have altered temporal lobe functioning (by EEG activity) compared to a control group. Altered functioning in the _right_ temporal lobe has been found to be neurologically correlated with subjectively reported “mystical and religious experiences.” In the NDE study, however, the altered functioning was exclusively in the _left_ temporal lobe. (Britton, WB, & Bootzin, RR, 2004) That’s one of the main areas associated with abnormal functioning in PTSD, which is what really intrigued me so much about it. Is it possible that there’s something about the biological/neurological NDE experience which could somehow be isolated and reproduced, so that PTSD survivors could benefit from it? > > Also, NDE’s do not cause pathological dissociation in experiencers (as a whole, as measured by Greyson’s NDE scale and the Dissociative Experiences Scale). (Greyson, 2000). This is a very significant finding, because a NDE is an experience which absolutely might have been predicted to cause dissociation-- yet as a rule, it doesn’t. PTSD, on the other hand, is a dissociative disorder, and it probably will _finally_ go into the correct category in the DSM-V. Again, what can we learn from NDE’s which could benefit PTSD survivors, and those with dissociative disorders? This kind of information is needed so desperately if practitioners are ever going to have better treatment to offer than we do (which isn’t that great at present in a lot of ways). > > I guess you could also quantify the subjective psychological changes which NDE survivors have had (“do you feel that you’ve become more spiritual, etc.”) I don’t see any reason why this couldn’t be done in a study, but a lot of strict parameters would have to be laid down. I think I could see some ways that information could be useful, but again, it wouldn’t be proof of anything except of what people strongly tend to have subjectively experienced. I have never heard of the brain itself being changed by any event, however, I do know some brains have more synapses than others. It is reported than Einstein’t brain had more than the normal brain. Exactly what this means is a mystery. What you are talking about is EEG activity, or the electrical activity of the brain which does change often under different conditions. I would like to point out that the electrical activity of the brain has not been proven to actually be consciousness. No memory, thoughts, emotions, etc., have been isolated in the activity itself. Due to current near death experience research that shows consciousness lives after the death of the brain I suspect that brain activity is only the footprint of consciousness, the effect of consciousness on the brain, and not consciousness itself. As for PTSD, I think it could be cured through knowledge learned from near death experiences. I have been helping suicidal individuals to live normal lives for a long time. I should say “not I” but the material posted on my site. In earlier years, I majored in Psychology, but gave up earning a degree in order to buy a business. I employed about 20 people. One day my delivery person ask if I would hire his brother who was in a mental institution. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia and had beaten up his last boss badly. I set up certain conditions, and informed the employees what to say and how to act with him. The first six months was off and on, he was so doped up he could hardly do anything. But as time passed and he began to feel more comfortable with us improvement was steady. He finally gave up all his medicine and took over the delivery position while his brother became a salesman for us. He worked for me 13 years, had only one traffic accident, and the customers loved him. The mentally ill can be healed but not with drugs in my opinion. I would think PTSD would be easier to heal than other forms of mental distress. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/282 "2009-07-26T16:30:12Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Your website has helped hundreds of people delude themselves with lies and childish fantasies instead of dealing with the real world. > > Just sayin’. Why bother. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/283 "2009-07-26T16:37:25Z")
Because it needs to be not only said, but said over and over again. That way, poor deluded people with real problems don’t get sucked in by your pseudo-science. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/284 "2009-07-26T16:57:09Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > Because it needs to be not only said, but said over and over again. That way, poor deluded people with real problems don’t get sucked in by your pseudo-science. I have no science, no need for any. How many poor deluded people do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/285 "2009-07-26T17:02:16Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Why bother. When you scroll to the top of the page, under the main title, “ **THE STRAIGHT DOPE** ”, there is a subtitle. Until you(and others) stop posting ignorance, we’re going to keep on fighting it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/286 "2009-07-26T17:03:11Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have no science, no need for any. How many poor deluded people do you know? On a silver platter, folks. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/287 "2009-07-26T17:04:29Z")
A few people. > **[Letters from visitors of this site, page one](https://aleroy.com/Letters.htm)** > > Letters from visitors of this site, page one ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/288 "2009-07-26T17:12:26Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > A few people. > > [Letters from visitors of this site, page one](http://aleroy.com/Letters.htm) A few paragraphs, a few untraceable and unverifiable initials without addresses. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/289 "2009-07-26T20:17:19Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > No one implied that it did. Spirits do not push the planchet around. Looks like you don’t understand what it happening. Sorry, lekatt. I forgot the “directly or indirectly” this time. The point is the same. You believe that the spirits cause the planchet to move. All evidence says that the people with their fingers on it cause it to move around. No credible evidence says that the spirits even exist in the first place. > [@lekatt](#): > > The only way you and other skeptics will know what a near death experience is to have one. I have dreams all the time. Same thing. > [@lekatt](#): > > I don’t look to science or religion to explain things any more. They are both methodologies. Lost in their own doctrines and cloistered from the realities of life. Do you realize that every time you make a statement like this you just demonstrate that you have absolutely no idea what science is. > [@lekatt](#): > > My web site has helped hundreds of people to find meaning again in their lives. If your web site has helped anyone do anything, it’s to _invent_ meaning, not find it. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/290 "2009-07-26T21:02:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When you scroll to the top of the page, under the main title, “ **THE STRAIGHT DOPE** ”, there is a subtitle. > Until you(and others) stop posting ignorance, we’re going to keep on fighting it. Thank you, that needed to be said. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/291 "2009-07-26T21:51:38Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > The Heisenberg uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics doesn’t state or imply that looking at a cow changes it into a chicken (or looking at unconscious hand movements change them into spirits pushing around an object). It states that you can’t measure two properties of certain objects exactly at the same time (e.g., if you accurately measure the velocity of a particle, you no longer know the exact location). I’ve always wondered about that. Why can’t one scientist measure the velocity of the electron and have a second scientist determine its location at the same time, and then compare notes later? ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/292 "2009-07-26T22:22:51Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’ve always wondered about that. Why can’t one scientist measure the velocity of the electron and have a second scientist determine its location at the same time, and then compare notes later? As I understand it, once you know the velocity of a particle, you CAN’T know it’s exact location anymore as it’s already somewhere else. Or something like that. When studying Quantum Mechanics, you have to roll a d100 for a sanity check every time you think you might understand something. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/293 "2009-07-26T23:51:29Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > As I understand it, once you know the velocity of a particle, you CAN’T know it’s exact location anymore as it’s already somewhere else. Or something like that. But that’s my point. Have Albert Schroedinger measure the particle’s velocity at time _t_, and have Irwin Einstein measure the same particle’s position at time _t_. I fail to see the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/294 "2009-07-27T00:57:03Z")
Lemme try this again…if you can measure a particles velocity then you can not measure it’s location because a particle moves to fast (I think). Best you can do is know a sort of wavefront like structure where the particle might be at any one point in time. I really can’t put the concept into words very well as I’m not a physicist, just a guy who likes to teach himself things. If You REALLY want to make your mind go nutso, look up zero, one and two dimensional objects and then try and mentally construct an object from them. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/295 "2009-07-27T01:44:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’ve always wondered about that. Why can’t one scientist measure the velocity of the electron and have a second scientist determine its location at the same time, and then compare notes later? What do you use to see the position and velocity of, say, a car? You use light. You can also radar, sonar, or some other similar wave or emission. The problem with measuring things like electrons is that they’re so small the things the you use to measure them with change them. It would be like finding the position or velocity of a car when your only tool was another car. You could put your car in the way of the other car and let it smash into it, and then you’d know the velocity. But that action would change the location, and wouldn’t be able to find it. This analogy kind of breaks down in that I can’t think of a way to find a car’s location with another car, but I hope you get the idea. If you shine a light on an electron, the light knocks the electron away, so you only get the briefest glimpse. You can either set it up so that you find out where the electron is going, or where it is right now, but doing one prevents you from doing the other. And no, you can’t do them both at the same time. This is an oversimplification to make things easier to understand. I’m probably getting some stuff wrong, but I think it gets the basic point across. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/296 "2009-07-27T01:56:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have no science, no need for any. Hey look at that, you did it again. Three posts earlier, 33 minutes prior, you started on your typical ignorant babble about some words you’d once heard that had something to do with brains and stuff: > [@](#): > > What you are talking about is EEG activity, or the electrical activity of the brain which does change often under different conditions. I would like to point out that the electrical activity of the brain has not been proven to actually be consciousness. No memory, thoughts, emotions, etc., have been isolated in the activity itself. Due to current near death experience research that shows consciousness lives after the death of the brain I suspect that brain activity is only the footprint of consciousness, the effect of consciousness on the brain, and not consciousness itself. Huh, EEG… awfully non-spiritual word that. Electroencephalogram. Almost sounds like science. Why yes, I do believe it is. But, this couldn’t be. After all, you have no need to for science! Of course, once again you’re just throwing in a few words you think you know something about to try and give your mumbo jumbo some credibility. Electrical activity has not been proven to be consciousness, no, but then, we have no evidence for anything else, so it’s pretty much the only game at this point. Current NDE research (hey there’s that nasty science stuff you hate again) most certainly does not show that consciousness lives on after the death of the brain. And I will take the evidence science has every single time over ‘lekatt suspects’. Science has proven itself, you have not. I hope I don’t need to bother pointing out the rampant idiocy in the rest of that post. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/297 "2009-07-27T02:12:05Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > You’re throwing out terms and concepts without understanding them. > > The Heisenberg uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics doesn’t state or imply that looking at a cow changes it into a chicken (or looking at unconscious hand movements change them into spirits pushing around an object). It states that you can’t measure two properties of certain objects exactly at the same time (e.g., if you accurately measure the velocity of a particle, you no longer know the exact location). I’ve always thought that the reason behind this whole Heisenberg thing is wrapped up in interdimensionality- that our dimensional lock and limits prevent us from perceiving these dualities in full. Paradoxical, perhaps. But it is possible to imagine these dimensions both mathematically and theoretically, so perhaps a model could be constructed… I doubt on this board, but somewhere with perhaps a lot less dogmatic propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/298 "2009-07-27T02:34:24Z")
For anoyone wishing to know more about Quantum Mechanics and Heisnberg’s Uncertainty Principle, here are some links: [Ridiculously complex version](http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/quantum/qm.html) [Quantum Mechanic For Beginnings](http://www.abarim-publications.com/QuantumMechanicsIntroduction.html) [Quantum Mechanics For Dummies #1](http://infophilia.blogspot.com/2006/11/quantum-mechanics-for-dummies-1-wave.html) [Stanford University Encyclopedia Of Philosophy Entry For Quantum Mechanics.](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm/) Really folks, the info is out there but this stuff is brain bustingly complex and trying to tie it in with whatever it is that **lekatt** is happily babbling away about just doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/299 "2009-07-27T02:51:36Z")
Oh… dear. I’m a social worker in community mental health, and people with most types of severe and persistent mental illness need to be taking prescribed medications. This is especially true of schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder,and bipolar disorder. We have better medications and better _classes_ of medications today than we’ve ever had before. The atypical antipsychotics (such as Seroquel, Risperdal, and Abilify) have made it possible for people with schizophrenia to live more normal lives than ever, and the newer anticonvulsives (such as Lamictal, Topamax, and Depakote) offer a whole range of options for bipolar disorder for people who never had the greatest responses to lithium. Now, are psych medications perfect? Not at all. Is giving medication all that needs to be done? Not by a very long shot. Do drug companies exaggerate claims? Yes, and consumers need to be better informed than they are. The oldest class of antidepressants, for instance (the MAOI’s, like Parnate and Marplan) still outperform anything newer on the market by a BIG margin, but they don’t make drug companies as much money (and there’s also that food/drug interaction problem, to be fair!) No medication has really been proven to be outstandingly helpful for PTSD or any of the dissociative disorders, either, although there are high hopes for Topamax. The point is that being skeptical about psych meds means looking at all the available evidence and coming up with the most logical conclusion, which is that some people simply 100% need to take them _and_ need to educate themselves about the limitations of what they can accomplish, the other things they need to do (like lifestyle changes and therapy), and which medications are most effective. Antianxiety meds and painkillers have definitely been overprescribed, and most doctors will tell you that. If someone has PTSD and/or any of the dissociative disorders and doesn’t have co-occurring depression (and that does happen), it’s possible that they might not be on any meds. However, research is showing that Topamax can really help, and possibly Lamictal as well. Also, co-occurring PTSD and schizophrenia/bipolar/etc. is _very_ common, and then the person does need medication. Those are decisions that have to be reached by looking at all available evidence and not just taking ANY kind of dogmatic stance. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/300 "2009-07-27T03:21:30Z")
I read this really good layman’s book about extradimensional theory some 17 years ago, it featured chapters of explanation by some of the top mathematical and physical theoreticists of the time… published around '90. Softcover, or I suppose card cover, very high quality paper and printing. Extremely lucent and clear narratives with math. I can’t think of the name… anybody ever read it? Highly recommended. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274.md?page=16)