# The dead contacting the living **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274 "2009-07-07T23:50:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/81 "2009-07-13T21:43:50Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > I didn’t invent the model of the quantum brain, Sir Roger Penrose did. And if you want to measure mathematical dicks with Penrose, be my guest. IOW, you read a work by Penrose, and understood just a little bit of it, enough so that you can write a very poor description of it. ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/82 "2009-07-13T21:51:22Z")
I haven’t seen any evidence that would lead me to believe that John Edward is actually contacting any deceased people from beyond the grave, although whether he _believes_ he is or not is something I don’t know enough to say anything about. My honest emotional response to people like him, though, is just… a kind of revulsion. Sorry to anyone who has positive feelings about him. Ick, ick, ick!!! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/83 "2009-07-13T22:10:27Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Have you read Penrose’s Shadows of the Mind and The Emperor’s New Mind? If the mind is a standing probability wave expressed through the medium of the quantum superposition of proteins in the microtubules of the brain and, as Penrose postulates, that consciousness is a side effect of complexity so that _any_ sufficiently complex system exhibits consciousness, then it’s not hard to theorize that consciousness is independent of its medium. > > In other words, the brain acts more as the equivalent of a radio receiver for consciousness rather than creating it. If this is the case, then consciousness may well survive the destruction of its medium. One need not posit the “supernatural” in order to conceive of communication with the dead. Perhaps all that’s necessary is a sufficiently complex, pseudo-random medium through which to express the probability wave of a dead person’s consciousness (ie/ Tarot cards, Ouija boards, or a medium’s own brain). Were this true, we could hook into _living_ people’s minds as well. And the question would immidiately be raised as to why the same “wave” was never “received” by more than one living person’s brain at once. I should also note that, as I have said before, the recent discovery of that substance “alcohol” lays to rest any theory that effecting the brain doesn’t alter the actual mechanism of consciousness, utterly disproving the notion of external “souls” or “standing probability waves”. Putting that aside, though…) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/84 "2009-07-13T22:15:16Z")
> [@Black\_Sunshine](#): > > According to the story, after the resurrection, Jesus was no longer dead. There’s still that whole uncrossable gulf problem. Whether dead or alive, he and Lazarus both crossed it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/85 "2009-07-13T22:18:24Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think you mean [John Edward](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edward), the guy on TV who claims to talk to dead people. The best-known [Jonathan Edwards](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Edwards_(theologian)) is the 16th-century American preacher/theologian. There’s [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Edwards_(musician)), who used to be somewhat popular. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/86 "2009-07-14T06:53:02Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > There’s still that whole uncrossable gulf problem. Whether dead or alive, he and Lazarus both crossed it. What gulf was that? Something different from that mentioned earlier? See post #21. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/87 "2009-07-14T08:14:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Speaking of which, if you drop a letter in the mail and then get flattened by a bus… when someone gets the letter a week later, technically they’ve been contacted by the dead. The dead speak to me everytime I play a Beatles CD. It’s eerie, and quite possibly eldritch too. ---
**Author:** ![Aelita\_Daystar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Aelita\_Daystar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aelita_Daystar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/88 "2009-07-14T11:49:22Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Were this true, we could hook into _living_ people’s minds as well. And the question would immediately be raised as to why the same “wave” was never “received” by more than one living person’s brain at once. It sounds to me like you’re describing telepathy here. That opens up a whole other line of argument. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/89 "2009-07-14T13:33:15Z")
The phrase “mortui vivos docebunt” or similar appears on plaques posted at a number of morgues. One variation employed at a medical examiner’s office went as follows: “This is the place where the dead delight to teach the living.” Probably not the sort of communication most here have in mind, but useful information can be passed on. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/90 "2009-07-14T15:45:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > To be clear, here, I’m a theoretical physicist by profession. I won’t say that I understand quantum mechanics, but I can at least work with it, and tell the difference between genuine quantum mechanics and pseudoscientific technobabble. To anyone who wishes to put forth a quantum model of consciousness, or the like, I would ask whether you’ve ever solved the Schrödinger equation, or calculated the spectrum of hydrogen. If you can’t do the math of quantum mechanics, then you can’t do anything with it, since the math is the only thing we know about QM. Let me introduce you to Dr. Quantum, anything said in math can be said in english also. > **[Double Slit Experiment - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](https://aleroy.com/blog/archives/1313/double-slit-experiment)** > > httpvhd://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1YqgPAtzho Everything is energy, E=mc2. All energy is sentient, conscious. All consciousness is sentient energy. Therefore the electrons are conscious, and when the observer is added, they conform to the... ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/91 "2009-07-14T16:15:39Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Let me introduce you to Dr. Quantum, anything said in math can be said in english also. > > [Double Slit Experiment - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=1313) You have written many, many stupid things on this board, but this is among the stupidest. There are countless concepts that can be expressed gracefully, quickly and clearly in mathematical notation, but only awkwardly, slowly, and imprecisely in English. Mathematics is (among other things) a language meant for communicating certain sorts of information–and different sorts of information than English is intended for. There are simple algebraic concepts that translate only haltingly to English. Trying to express quantum theory in English is like trying to write a symphony that way; the demands of the topic are so ill-suited to the medium that any effort is doomed to be a rough and often misleading approximation. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/92 "2009-07-14T16:35:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You have written many, many stupid things on this board, but this is among the stupidest. There are countless concepts that can be expressed gracefully, quickly and clearly in mathematical notation, but only awkwardly, slowly, and imprecisely in English. Mathematics is (among other things) a language meant for communicating certain sorts of information–and different sorts of information than English is intended for. There are simple algebraic concepts that translate only haltingly to English. Trying to express quantum theory in English is like trying to write a symphony that way; the demands of the topic are so ill-suited to the medium that any effort is doomed to be a rough and often misleading approximation. Really? I always thought Roger Penrose, Albert Einstein, Bertrand Russell, Charles Hawkins, and others did rather well at translating math into english. Guess it depends on the individual. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/93 "2009-07-14T18:30:41Z")
> [@Aelita\_Daystar](#): > > It sounds to me like you’re describing telepathy here. That opens up a whole other line of argument. Nope - here “wave” refers to the “standing probability wave”, which is to say, the soul itself, not some communication system between souls. Telepathy would be when two of these SPWs, floating around in their eldrich aether, leaned over and had a chat irrespective of silence in the physical realm, and isn’t what I’m talking about. What I am referring to is, if SPWs are using the brains as radio broadcasters/receivers, and that these waves could be picked up by “any sufficiently complex system” such as perhaps computers or sufficiently complicated bowls of pasta, then what is preventing one SPW from hooking into two such systems, or two living brains, at the same time? Note that this would _not_ be perceived as a spirit talking to you; this would be percieved as having a complete second set of senses attached to a single mind, of equal reality as the first set simultaneously. You’d think that a person experiencing this would notice immediately - yet nobody seems to ever mention it happening. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/94 "2009-07-14T19:51:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Really? I always thought Roger Penrose, Albert Einstein, Bertrand Russell, Charles Hawkins, and others did rather well at translating math into english. Guess it depends on the individual. Stephen Hawkins, and Carl Sagan also. I like QM ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/95 "2009-07-14T20:45:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You have written many, many stupid things on this board, but this is among the stupidest. There are countless concepts that can be expressed gracefully, quickly and clearly in mathematical notation, but only awkwardly, slowly, and imprecisely in English. Mathematics is (among other things) a language meant for communicating certain sorts of information–and different sorts of information than English is intended for. There are simple algebraic concepts that translate only haltingly to English. Trying to express quantum theory in English is like trying to write a symphony that way; the demands of the topic are so ill-suited to the medium that any effort is doomed to be a rough and often misleading approximation. Math scares me a lot, which could be why I don’t even TRY to understand quantum mechanics. 😉 I shall leave it to the… quantum mechanicicians? (That doesn’t sound like a word…) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/96 "2009-07-15T16:31:48Z")
> [@Anise](#): > > Math scares me a lot, which could be why I don’t even TRY to understand quantum mechanics. 😉 I shall leave it to the… quantum mechanicicians? (That doesn’t sound like a word…) Don’t be afraid of math. It is reported that Einstein’s math teacher told him he would never be a mathetician. What the teacher unknowing meant, that he wouldn’t be a math expert on the teacher’s schedule. Working on his own schedule Einstein proved the teacher wrong. Many fail to learn their subjects on school schedules, but later become the best in their field. It is determination that matters. As for Quantum Mechanics there are several authors that can explain the general principles without the use of math. QM is an important discovery because it is beginning to show us that the spiritual concepts taught for centuries have merit. The video I linked above is only one in a series. Don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t learn a subject, any subject. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/97 "2009-07-15T16:36:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > As for Quantum Mechanics there are several authors that can explain the general principles without the use of math. QM is an important discovery because it is beginning to show us that the spiritual concepts taught for centuries have merit. The video I linked above is only one in a series. Don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t learn a subject, any subject. Um, no. This is completely and totally wrong. Right now, QM is almost nothing but math, trying to explain anything beyond the most basic concepts without math is guaranteed to get something wrong. QM shows us nothing about spirituality. All you’ve shown is that you most certainly do not understand QM. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/98 "2009-07-15T16:47:58Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > QM shows us nothing about spirituality. Have you read [The Dancing Wu Li Masters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dancing_Wu_Li_Masters)? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/99 "2009-07-15T17:12:17Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Have you read [The Dancing Wu Li Masters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dancing_Wu_Li_Masters)? No, I’ll have to add it to the list with the other fantasy books. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/100 "2009-07-15T17:55:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > QM is an important discovery because it is beginning to show us that the spiritual concepts taught for centuries have merit. No, it doesn’t. People can use almost anything to “prove” spiritual concepts, which has led to numerology, crystal therapy, pyramid power, astrology, and many other scams that have no basis in reality whatsoever. If you try hard enough, you can make up spiritual influences in every rock, twig, and ripple in the water, but mathematics won’t demonstrate merit in any of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274.md?page=6)