# The dead contacting the living **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274 "2009-07-07T23:50:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/141 "2009-07-17T19:32:14Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I spoke to a dead guy once. He didn’t say much – guess he was the quiet type. Nice mental picture there. :dubious: I’ve talked to people who had psychotic depersonalization syndrome. These folks really _believe_ they’re dead. They could not be more convinced of it. And they do talk… so there you go. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/142 "2009-07-17T20:33:10Z")
> [@Anise](#): > > …I’ve talked to people who had psychotic depersonalization syndrome. These folks really _believe_ they’re dead. They could not be more convinced of it. And they do talk… so there you go. 😉 Yeah but they were missing random chunks of flesh, had a putrid smell coming off of them and have empty eye sockets? Because mine did. ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/143 "2009-07-17T20:53:40Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Yeah but they were missing random chunks of flesh, had a putrid smell coming off of them and have empty eye sockets? Because mine did. Um… no. In community mental health, the nurse would catch on sooner or later. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/144 "2009-07-17T21:10:41Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Perhaps when you are really interested in learning how it works you will ask politely. You say he mischaracterized what you said; pretty please, with sugar on top, for the rest of us explain what you _actually_ mean. If it wouldn’t too much trouble, sir. And again, remember that you are under oath. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/145 "2009-07-17T21:28:02Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > I can’t believe _you_ actually said that! You’ve made a lot of absolutely amazing assumptions in this and other threads. Based on no real evidence whatsoever, you’ve assumed the existence of spirits and demons, the validity of dowsing, and much more. Although, you’re right. They do have no place in reality. > > We’ve had this discussion, **lekatt** , and I can’t get consistent or meaningful answers from you. First you say that Ouija boards are tools for contacting the spirit world and that the movement of the pointer is controlled (directly or indirectly) by the spirits, and then you flat-out deny that you’ve said that. I made no assumptions. I experienced first-hand what I talked about. I still experience the spiritual world on an almost daily basis, so do millions of other people. I am very consistent at being inconsistent, I follow the principles of spirit, but they don’t follow physical “laws.” Sorry, I didn’t make up the principles or how they work, I just experienced them. Religion and science are both wrong about life. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/146 "2009-07-17T21:33:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I made no assumptions. I experienced first-hand what I talked about. I still experience the spiritual world on an almost daily basis, so do millions of other people. Wait, millions? How do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/147 "2009-07-17T21:36:07Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Wait, millions? How do you know? Well, he’s talking to an liminal dead man right now, isn’t it? Snark aside, why in the name are y’all engaging lekatt in this discussion? Do you enjoy his woo-woo? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/148 "2009-07-17T21:44:42Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > You say he mischaracterized what you said; pretty please, with sugar on top, for the rest of us explain what you _actually_ mean. If it wouldn’t too much trouble, sir. > > And again, remember that you are under oath. Hi, I laughed when I read this. So I shall comply as best I can. When you die you return to a formless mass of pure conscious energy. That was what you were like before you took control of a physical body. Now if a “dead” mass of energy, having lost his body, wants to contact a “live” mass of energy, having still a body, it is done with thought. There is a meeting of thought between the two and the result is spelled out by the "live’ one on the board. Thoughts are very powerful. I swear this is the essential truth on a stack of sacred texts. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/149 "2009-07-17T21:51:17Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Wait, millions? How do you know? There are over 12 million people here in the US that have had near death experiences. The result of a survey. Look it’s ok if you think that’s not right. You have been taught to think all spiritual stuff can be explained as natural occurrences. You haven’t doubted that yet, and began to research it. So what else could you think. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/150 "2009-07-17T21:57:01Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There are over 12 million people here in the US that have had near death experiences. The result of a survey. Look it’s ok if you think that’s not right. You have been taught to think all spiritual stuff can be explained as natural occurrences. You haven’t doubted that yet, and began to research it. So what else could you think. Actually, I was asking on the basis that it probably would be a survey. Could you link me to it? Because generally surveys themselves nowadays are the result of scientific enquiry, which would rather make them void for you. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/151 "2009-07-17T22:10:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I made no assumptions. I experienced first-hand what I talked about. I still experience the spiritual world on an almost daily basis, so do millions of other people. Can’t you see the assumptions in what you’re talking about? You are experiencing things you either don’t understand or can’t explain, and you’re _assuming_ that they are connected to a spirit world (which in turn, you’re _assuming_ actually exists). I’ll agree that millions of people have experienced a cold draft and assumed it was a ghost, or remembered the one prophetic dream that turned out be correct (forgetting the dozens or hundreds that didn’t), or misunderstood the laws of probability (If you predict a plane crash in the next month, you’re highly likely to be correct. If you make the same prediction every month, you’re guaranteed to eventually be correct). I’d guess that tens of millions of people have let themselves be fooled by astrologers, mediums, and other scam artists. But that’s not evidence of the existence of a spirit world. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/152 "2009-07-17T22:20:26Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > If you predict a plane crash in the next month, you’re highly likely to be **correct**. If you make the same prediction every month, you’re guaranteed to eventually be correct). I’d guess that tens of millions of people have let themselves be fooled by astrologers, mediums, and other scam artists. I REALLy hope you edit this in an negating prefix quickly. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/153 "2009-07-17T22:28:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There are over 12 million people here in the US that have had near death experiences. The result of a survey. Look it’s ok if you think that’s not right. You have been taught to think all spiritual stuff can be explained as natural occurrences. You haven’t doubted that yet, and began to research it. So what else could you think. IMHO… and it’s a HO… (that didn’t sound very good, did it?) Two things are being spoken about interchangeably here that really aren’t interchangeable. A NDE is not the same thing as the dead contacting the living, telepathy, monks levitating 12 feet off the ground, ouija boards, and so on,and on, and on, and I think it’s very unfortunate when the two categories get conflated together. In fact, Ray Moody’s original work on NDE’s back in the 1970’s noted that before all the media attention, it was very rare for people to become more interested in paranormal topics after a NDE. I don’t discount NDE’s as personal experiences, actually. Not at all. (Although 12 million sounds WAY too high to me…) But a NDE is _not_ a proof text. A NDE should _not_ be used as proof “of” anything-- that’s my opinion, but it’s something I feel strongly about. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/154 "2009-07-17T23:05:34Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > > > (If you predict a plane crash in the next month, you’re highly likely to be correct. If you make the same prediction every month, you’re guaranteed to eventually be correct). I’d guess that tens of millions of people have let themselves be fooled by astrologers, mediums, and other scam artists. > > I REALLy hope you edit this in an negating prefix quickly. 😃 I’m sorry, **Skald** , but I reread what you quoted, and I don’t get what you’re saying. Unless you’re saying that some kind of plane isn’t likely to crash somewhere in the world in the next month. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/155 "2009-07-17T23:55:48Z")
I will just answer all in one post. The basic problem is you don’t know what I am talking about, you don’t know spiritual things. Especially you don’t know about near death experiences and all the research being done. But I don’t fault any of you. Can’t expect you to understand what you have never seen or read about in any depth. So I will link a video that describes what a near death experience consists of and what the experiencers feel. I will retire after this unless anyone really wishes to learn about them. [http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=1400](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=1400) ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/156 "2009-07-18T03:00:40Z")
If anyone wants to learn more about the research currently being done regarding neurological correlates of NDE’s and mystical states, I highly recommend a simple method: go to [http://www.pubmed.gov](http://www.pubmed.gov) and type in near AND death AND experience. Also try mystical AND experience. Fascinating stuff in peer-reviewed journals, including double-blind studies. But they’re not trying to _prove_ anything as such, and they really have nothing to say about paranormal experiences. Now, to be completely fair, I guess that’s not to say that someone can’t read these articles and then decide that this evidence is applicable to the paranormal in some way. But even in that case, this is how evidence-based practice actually works-- it’s necessary to _start_ with good quality evidence. And that’s my .02 cents’ worth. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/157 "2009-07-18T03:02:57Z")
If anyone wants to learn more about the research currently being done regarding neurological correlates of NDE’s and mystical states, I highly recommend a simple method: go to [http://www.pubmed.gov](http://www.pubmed.gov) and type in near AND death AND experience. Also try mystical AND experience. Fascinating stuff in peer-reviewed journals, including single-blind studies (unfortunately, double-blind really isn’t possible in this context! Subjects have to know what they’re thinking about.) But the authors not trying to _prove_ anything as such, and they really have nothing to say about paranormal experiences. Now, to be completely fair, I guess that’s not to say that someone can’t read these articles and then decide that this evidence is applicable to the paranormal in some way. But even in that case, this is how evidence-based practice actually works-- it’s necessary to _start_ with good quality evidence. And that’s my .02 cents’ worth. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/158 "2009-07-18T04:32:44Z")
> [@Anise](#): > > I’ve talked to people who had psychotic depersonalization syndrome. These folks really _believe_ they’re dead. They could not be more convinced of it. And they do talk… so there you go. 😉 “Psychotic depersonalization syndrome?” Could they not have coined at least a slightly friendlier-sounding term? Like “false deadness disorder” or something? “Psychotic depersonalization syndrome” sounds like a fictional delusion that a screenwriter made up because they couldn’t think of anything more insane-sounding. If the patient has to accept the fact that they suffer from “psychotic depersonalization syndrome,” I could see how there might be a strong incentive for them to just keep believing they’re dead. It sounds healthier. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/159 "2009-07-18T13:46:13Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > “Psychotic depersonalization syndrome?” > > Could they not have coined at least a slightly friendlier-sounding term? Like “false deadness disorder” or something? “Psychotic depersonalization syndrome” sounds like a fictional delusion that a screenwriter made up because they couldn’t think of anything more insane-sounding. > > If the patient has to accept the fact that they suffer from “psychotic depersonalization syndrome,” I could see how there might be a strong incentive for them to just keep believing they’re dead. It sounds healthier. Well, this has nothing to do with near death experiences. Never heard of an experiencer who still thought he was dead. Just misdirection. If you want to find out what happens you need to read the accounts of real experiencers. Those without the benefit of the experience can only guess or assume what they are, while the real experiencers know what they are. By the way, there is no neurological correlation of anything that has to do with consciousness. No physical memory, thoughts, emotions and such have ever been isolated in the brain. There is brain activity, what this activity is differs from one researcher to another. It is never been proven that this activity is really consciousness. We don’t even know what consciousness is, or how it works. Here is a better theory > **[The Magic Brain - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](https://aleroy.com/blog/archives/298/the-magic-brain)** > > The brain has been studied by researchers for over 100 years looking for consciousness. I know I am conscious, aware of myself, and my surroundings. I believe my consciousness would need ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274/160 "2009-07-18T14:36:11Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > “Psychotic depersonalization syndrome?” > > Could they not have coined at least a slightly friendlier-sounding term? Like “false deadness disorder” or something? “Psychotic depersonalization syndrome” sounds like a fictional delusion that a screenwriter made up because they couldn’t think of anything more insane-sounding. > > If the patient has to accept the fact that they suffer from “psychotic depersonalization syndrome,” I could see how there might be a strong incentive for them to just keep believing they’re dead. It sounds healthier. Well, nobody would ever CALL a client that to their face, I sincerely hope… “Hey, Psychotic depersonalization syndrome sufferer! Get over here. Time for meds. ;)” Depersonalization is the primary diagnosis, and there’s a lot of research on it right now (Daphne Simeon among others). A “regular” depersonalization syndrome statement would be “I know this sounds absolutely crazy, but I feel exactly like I’m dead.” Intact reality testing, you see. But neither of them have anything to do with NDE’s. The NDE research (of the type that ends up on search engines like PubMed, PsychInfo, and Cochrane, that is) really is fascinating, because it’s quantifiable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dead-contacting-the-living/502274.md?page=9)