# The death of 6 million jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190 "2003-07-09T07:16:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/61 "2003-07-10T14:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KGS \* > \*\*Ahem, very important nitpick here: > > The Holocaust caused the death of six million JEWS. The total death toll was more like 11 to 12 million, which included blacks \*\* Nitpick: not that many blacks. There were just a few hundred blacks that were permanent residents of pre-war Germany, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/62 "2003-07-10T14:44:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kal \* > \*\*To clarify something else for me regarding your statement that the Roma and Sinti were targetted as antisocial: Are you saying that they were not targeted for racial reasons, but because they were criminals? \*\* I don’t know if this is what MC is saying, but the Nazis did consider all Roma and Sinti to be asocial and criminals. So, even though the groups were targeted for racial reasons, they were classified as “asocial”. As to the “Gypsy Theme Park”, I’ve done some web searches, and there seem to have been an order issued by Himmler, one on October 13, 1942, distinguishing the Roma from the “Racially pure” Sinta and Lalleri, and saying that the latter should be given certain rights and allowed to live, and put on reservations. Martin Bormann wrote him saying, “What the hell are you doing? Hitler wouldn’t like it”, and the idea was kiboshed. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/63 "2003-07-10T16:24:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zen101 \* > \*\*Hell, Hitler’s crowd were pikers compared to Stalin and Pol Pot made Stalin look like Captain Kangaroo. \*\* I’m not sure about how you mean that Pol Pot made Stalin look like Capt Kangaroo. As far as I can tell Stalin had Pol Pot beat in sheer numbers. > [@](#): > > \*\* > [list=1] > [li]Joseph Stalin, 43 million dead, 1929-'53;[/li] > [li]Mao Tse-tung, 38 million, 1923-'76;[/li] > [li]Adolf Hitler, 21 million, 1933-'45;[/li] > [li]Chiang Kai-shek, 10 million, 1921-'48; [/li] > [li]Vladimir Lenin, 4 million, 1917-'24;[/li] > [li]Tojo Hideki (Japan), 4 million, 1941-'45;[/li] > [li]Pol Pot, 2.4 million, 1968-'87;[/li] > [li]Yahya Khan (Pakistan), 1.5 million, 1971;[/li] > [li]Josip Broz, better known as Marshal Tito (Yugoslavia), 1.2 million, 1941-'80.[/li][/list=1]\*\* [@ the feet of The Perfect Master](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021018.html) ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/64 "2003-07-10T16:30:53Z")
It is scary how quickly a societies basic prejudices can be capitalized on by those in authority. Someone mentioned the initial days after 9/11 and how some people went out of their way to make examples of Arabic looking people (a few East Indians were also attacked as Arabs). Luckily all authority figures at the time urged people not to attack their fellow Americans… imagine if they said nothing, or gave tacit approval. Tell me actions would not have escalated. Tell me neighbourhoods would not have been burned down and families not murdered in the streets. I think what makes the holocaust more frightening to us Westerners rather than say Rwanda and those of the Kamir Rouge, is that there is a perception that **We** don’t behave like that. **We** aren’t “savages” That is what **those people** do. So when a modern industrialized western nation takes it upon itself to slaughter people en masse we really become frightened because of what it really says about us. Of course you still have people trying to distance themselves by pretending that it is some flaw in the make up of Germans. But I feel they are in denial. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/65 "2003-07-10T16:34:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\* > As far as I can tell Stalin had Pol Pot beat in sheer numbers. > \*\* You’ve got to remember, though, he had a lot more people to kill. And he did it for longer. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/66 "2003-07-10T16:44:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*You’ve got to remember, though, he had a lot more people to kill. And he did it for longer. \*\* Only 5 more years. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/67 "2003-07-10T16:48:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kingpengvin \* > [Of course you still have people trying to distance themselves by pretending that it is some flaw in the make up of Germans. But I feel they are in denial. Again I agree. Guess Yugoslavia showed us how easy it is for a normal modern western society to revert back to barbarism, when not kept in check. Civilisation is indeed just a thin veneer. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/68 "2003-07-10T16:58:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Only 5 more years. \*\* You can get a lot of killing done in 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/69 "2003-07-10T17:08:39Z")
Stalin does not look like Captain Kangaroo when compare to anybody. Stalin didn’t fit in the excess 40 million deaths in those five years. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/70 "2003-07-10T17:24:03Z")
\*\* [list=1] [li]Stalin 1.79 mil / yr[/li] [li]Adolph Hitler 1.75 mil / yr[/li] [li]Yahya Khan 1.50 mil / yr[/li] [li]Tojo Hideki 1.00 mil / yr[/li] [li]Mao Tse-tung 0.72 mil / yr[/li] [li]Vladimir Lenin 0.57 mil / yr[/li] [li]Chiang Kai-shek 0.43 mil / yr[/li] [li]Pol Pot 0.13 mil / yr[/li] [li]Josip Broz 0.03 mil / yr[/li][/list=1]\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/71 "2003-07-10T17:24:58Z")
Regarding Stalin and Pol Pot - it’s worth considering that Cambodia only had a population of 6-7 million. The decisions on who to kill were also a lot more outlandish (if that word can be used properly when describing mass murder). Glasses = sign of education = death. Either way, comparing bodies counts of such a degree is IMO at least, a bit of an exercise in futility. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/72 "2003-07-10T17:28:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dissonance \* > \*\*Regarding Stalin and Pol Pot - it’s worth considering that Cambodia only had a population of 6-7 million. The decisions on who to kill were also a lot more outlandish (if that word can be used properly when describing mass murder). Glasses = sign of education = death. > > Either way, comparing bodies counts of such a degree is IMO at least, a bit of an exercise in futility. \*\* Ahh. Maybe that’s what was meant. a percentage of the population and rationale for their murders. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/73 "2003-07-10T17:53:49Z")
How about a change of tact? The capacity to kill the “others” is inately human. Okay. The common motto after The Holocaust has been “Never Again.” But what have we learned? Specifically have we learned how to make “never again” a reality? I here do not mean specifically for any particular group targetted in The Holocaust, whether it be Jew or Romani, but in the generic sense. I haven’t seen evidence of it. When do we leave countries alone to their internal affairs and when do we all intervene and how? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/74 "2003-07-10T18:36:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eolbo \* > \*\*That’s just not true. As bad as life was for Germans in 1945 the average German housewife was unlikely to be handed over to Stalin’s secret police and her husband executed. These are prospects that will play on someone’s mind, and the news of Clara Petacci’s corpse being strung up in a marketplace isnt going to help either. I’m not condoning it I’m just viewing it as desperation in the face of a very bleak future with some husbandly pressure on top. I have not read she personally was a nazi fanatic but even if she was that’s less reason to take her peculiar circumstances and extrapolate about German psychology as most Germans werent nazi fanatics. She just wasnt in the typical German woman’s position. Very few women are married to men hated all around the world and subject to the consequences that will bring. \*\* I disagree. Though I’m not sure what the point is in arguing it. It doesn’t line up at all with what I’ve read about the fall of Germany. > [@](#): > > _“Two eyes for an eye,” was the Russian motto as they drove on to Berlin, and the Russians soldiers lived up to it with such incredible fury that even the Russian high command began taking measures to hold back on the senseless bloodshed, the rape and plunder. \ …they launched their final big push to Berlin, which was then just thirty-five miles to the west. For the Germans, it was a last agonizing nightmare, worse than all other nightmares they had been living with for so long. In short, it was the same anguish Germany had inflicted on millions of others._ > > …But the looting and raping in a big way did not start until our soldiers got to Germany. Our fellows were so sex-starved that they often raped old women of sixty, or seventy, or even eighty - much to these grandmother’s surprise, if not downright delight. But I admit it was a nasty business, and the record of the Kazakhs and other Asiatic troops was particularly bad. > > - A Russian Major as told to Alexander Werth > > Panic had reached its peak in the city. > > The scourge of our district was a small one-legged _Hauptscharfuhrer_ of the SS who stumped through the street on crutches, a machine pistol at the ready, followed by his men. Anyone he didn’t like the look of he instantly shot. The gang went down cellars at random and dragged all the men outside, giving them rifles and ordering them straight to the front. Anyone who hesitated was shot. > > The front was a few streets away… > > - Claus Fuhrmann, Clerk > > (American Heritage, Picture History of WWII 1966) [http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/8\_19/entertainment/23239-1.html](http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/8_19/entertainment/23239-1.html) > [@](#): > > Russian soldiers practiced rape, pillage and plunder on a grand scale. Beevor estimates that as many as one and a half million women were raped in the eastern reaches of the Reich and maybe two million in all. Many were victims of gang rape. > > German women became an outlet for the pent up hostility against the Nazis, because of Germany’s wanton destruction of the Russian Motherland. > > The Russians raped not only Germans, but also Poles and liberated Russian women prisoners. Russian tanks thought nothing of running over refugee columns, and its fighter planes strafed fleeing civilians at will. > > The Nazi leaders issued orders to shoot to kill anyone retreating and refused to evacuate civilians from the East until it was too late. When the Red Army began to encircle various German cities, the local Nazi officials were the first ones to flee. The Allies were toward the East, liberating work and prisoner camps at they went…the Russians intended to reach Berlin before the West, and they did. Eisenhower after seeing his first camp called for journalists and officials to come immediately and record the evidence. My grandfather was one of those troops, his path went from Bastogne to Auschwitz, so I’m reasonably sure of that account and the “surprise” factor. This evidence was causing the Allied troops to be less-than-sympathetic towards the population. Whatever that means in practice. There’s a picture here of a forced walk of German civilians by a line of dead Jewish women, “starved during a 300-mile march.” I have no idea what else went on. Not to put too fine a point on it, the German citizenry were fucked, literally and figuratively, from every direction at this time. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190/75 "2003-07-10T20:03:55Z")
I think you miss the big distinction that must have played on her mind. She was married to a high profile party member. If The average German woman was in fear for their life she would have felt it tenfold. Her stress was higher because her stature meant she and her family would have been singled out for “special treatment”. In her mind she knew the Russians would take out revenge on Party members much more harshly than they would at the population in general. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-6-million-jews/187190.md?page=3)