# The Death of Conservatism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508 "2009-09-10T02:32:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/81 "2009-09-11T15:02:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Most conservatives today aren’t like that either. Unfortunately, many young liberals are too foolish and bigoted to understand that disagreement on a political issue does not make the other side evil or immoral. Yes, but its the place they call home. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/82 "2009-09-11T15:05:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Barring them managing to completely take over and institute an outright theocracy and writing their beliefs wholly into the law, I expect that the ideology that calls itself conservatism will die just as such ideologies as Jim Crow, slavery as God’s Will, and opposition to women voting have mostly died out. There’ll be something called “conservatism”, but it won’t resemble what is now called conservatism. Yeah, people will be calling Bill CLinton conservative in a few decades. Perhaps, its not people who become more conservative with age, perhaps it is the world that becomes more liberal with progress. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/83 "2009-09-11T15:27:32Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I believe the power of the State should be strictly limited to those powers granted in the Constitution Have you heard of the commerce clause and the general welfare clause? > [@](#): > > I am not an evil person. I’m not a racist. I’m not a homophobe, or any of those other horrible things that have been broad-brushed over all conservatives in this thread. Its probably the company you keep. Right or wrong, libertarians are associated with Republicans and the most vocal spokemen for the party seem to be a lot of those things you claim not to be. In fact the last 10 years have proven the Republican party to be significantly less libertarian than the Democartic party (Its not like the Republicans have shrunk government, displayed fiscal responisbility or reduced government intrusiojn into your private life). At least the Democrats are trying to reduce the size of meidcare over time. Yoou should either switch parties or you should start a new one because if you hang out with a bunch of racists, religious fanatics and rich asho!es you might get mistaken for one of them (in fact you might BECOME one of them). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/84 "2009-09-11T15:31:22Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The Republican Party can recover if it manages to reinvent itself as a genuine limited-government party. However, to do so would require it to shuck much of its Religious Right baggage. When they couldn’t win elections in the 60’s they courted the racists and when they couldn’t win in the 90’s they courted the religious fanatics. The Republican party is an unholy alliance between people who don’t want to kill babies… unless they are black… and certainly don’t give a crap what happens to them after they are born. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/85 "2009-09-11T15:36:56Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > It worked that way for me too but it hasn’t worked that way for the baby boomers. Well, a lot of them were **really** radical in their youth – at a time when it really appeared such radicalism could or even inevitably would change the system, etc. It would be astonishing if they had **not** become at least more moderate as, the anticipated revolution never arising, they had to grow up and come to grips with life in the existing system and get regular jobs. But, AFAIK, only a few special cases, such as David Horowitz, actually swung around to the opposite RW extreme. Most Baby Boomers, if they were leftists or liberals in the '60s (many of that generation were not, remember; a lot depended on personal background), are probably at least moderately liberal now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/86 "2009-09-11T15:38:16Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > Yeah, people will be calling Bill CLinton conservative in a few decades. Many called him so while he was POTUS, and with considerable justice. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/87 "2009-09-11T15:39:04Z")
Just to make a small and short point, viewed from pretty much anywhere that requires a passport, Conservatism in the USA looks in rude health. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/88 "2009-09-11T15:39:20Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > We can’t really nationalize the debt (I forgot to include debt service along with military, social security and medicare/medicaid as the three largest budget items) can we? What do you mean? Isn’t the national debt already nationalized, by definition? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/89 "2009-09-11T15:42:09Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Just to make a small and short point, viewed from pretty much anywhere that requires a passport, Conservatism in the USA looks in rude health. That’s because, viewed from pretty much anywhere that requires a passport, “conservatism” in the USA **includes** most of what we Yanks think of as “liberalism.” The political center-of-gravity in America is significantly leftward now of where it was 20 or even 10 years ago. But that center is still a pretty RW position by the standards of most industrialized democracies. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/90 "2009-09-11T15:44:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What do you mean? Isn’t the national debt already nationalized, by definition? I mean that the places where we can save money on the federal budget are not big enough to balance the budget without raising taxes unless we are ready to break promises or significantly reduce out military power (and consequently our role in the world). ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/91 "2009-09-11T16:11:27Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > Yeah, people will be calling Bill CLinton conservative in a few decades. Perhaps, its not people who become more conservative with age, perhaps it is the world that becomes more liberal with progress. The world was FAR more liberal in the past. The highest marginal tax rates were over 70% in the U.S., and over 90% in the UK. Unions ran rampant. Governments were indulging in industrial policy throughout the major western economies. The result was a mess. People smartened up, embraced global free trade and abandoned the grand schemes to manage industry from within government, lowered taxes, and the result was the longest economic expansion in history. The problem today is that the other big problem of activist government was never addressed - the insane level of entitlement spending. It was ignored because it was a problem that was a long way off, and politicians just love to kick the can over the hill to the next administration. Well, now that problem is here, and these unsustainable government programs are now exploding the budgets of the major democracies. If you thnk the world is moving away from markets and towards big government, here’s something to consider: The country weathering the current economic storm better than any other country in the G7 is Canada. We’re already out of recession, and in the last quarter we actually created new jobs, while other countries were happy to just see the rate of job loss slow down a little. We have almost no debt and a small deficit. Our unemployment rate is 1% lower than the U.S.'s, and that gap is starting to grow larger. And guess what? Canada is the only country in the G7 that has been _shrinking_ the size of its government. We’ve also been lowering taxes dramatically - especially taxes on businesses and capital gains. Ten years ago, the situation was reversed. We had higher taxes than the U.S., more social programs, and a bigger government measured against GDP. Back then, our unemployment rate was 1-3% higher than the U.S’s. In February, Obama went to Europe to plead with the European countries to enact their own stimulus packages as large as the U.S’s. Many of those countries refused. Canada refused. Our stimulus was about 1/3 the size of the US’s stimulus. Today, almost all the countries that refused are recovering from the downturn faster than is the United States. I will grant you that the U.S. appears to have taken a hard turn to the left. I also think that unless it backs away from this, times are going to get much harder for Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/92 "2009-09-11T18:05:08Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The highest marginal tax rates were over 70% in the U.S., and over 90% in the UK. Unions ran rampant. Governments were indulging in industrial policy throughout the major western economies. The result was a mess. People smartened up, embraced global free trade and abandoned the grand schemes to manage industry from within government, lowered taxes, and the result was the longest economic expansion in history. Yeah, with only a few minor side effects like a massive stock market crash, an epidemic of bankruptcies, ballooning unemployment and the worst recession since the 1930’s. **Sam** , the conservative meme you’re promoting here seems to be based on pretending that the American conservatism of recent decades was all working out just peachy-dandy, until those silly activist liberals just arbitrarily decided one day to make the US “take a hard turn to the left” for no detectable reason. Do you really think we don’t remember 2008? That we don’t know that it was a self-proclaimed defiantly conservative administration that got us into the current mess (even if they don’t fit your own True Scotsman definition of “conservative”)? Conservatism is struggling now because conservatism had pretty much a free hand for quite a while, and conservatism fucked up really bad. Do you think we can’t see that elephant in the room? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/93 "2009-09-11T18:14:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Do you think we can’t see that elephant in the room? I see what you did there… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/94 "2009-09-11T18:34:32Z")
We can see what the elephant left behind, anyway. I do so love arguments along the lines of “Let’s let the policies that got us into this mess get us out of it! Stay the course! Don’t cut and run!”. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/95 "2009-09-11T18:39:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, with only a few minor side effects like a massive stock market crash, an epidemic of bankruptcies, ballooning unemployment and the worst recession since the 1930’s. > > **Sam** , the conservative meme you’re promoting here seems to be based on pretending that the American conservatism of recent decades was all working out just peachy-dandy, until those silly activist liberals just arbitrarily decided one day to make the US “take a hard turn to the left” for no detectable reason. > > Do you really think we don’t remember 2008? That we don’t know that it was a self-proclaimed defiantly conservative administration that got us into the current mess (even if they don’t fit your own True Scotsman definition of “conservative”)? > > Conservatism is struggling now because conservatism had pretty much a free hand for quite a while, and conservatism fucked up really bad. Do you think we can’t see that elephant in the room? The current recession is pretty bad, and we’ll see where the floor is, but if we’re near it now, then I have to point out that unemployment still isn’t as high as its peak in 1982. Also, real GDP has almost tripled since 1980, and if the current downturn takes it down by a couple of percentage points, it hardly makes a difference. Finally, although I know you like to lay the blame for all the bad things at the feet of the market, government had a pretty big hand in setting up the conditions for the current downturn. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/96 "2009-09-11T19:19:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Conservatism is struggling now because conservatism had pretty much a free hand for quite a while, and conservatism fucked up really bad. Oh, but that’s only because the stateloving Bush Admin wasn’t **really** Scot- . . . conservative. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/97 "2009-09-11T19:35:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The current recession is pretty bad, and we’ll see where the floor is, but if we’re near it now, then I have to point out that unemployment still isn’t as high as its peak in 1982. Also, real GDP has almost tripled since 1980, and if the current downturn takes it down by a couple of percentage points, it hardly makes a difference. > > Finally, although I know you like to lay the blame for all the bad things at the feet of the market, government had a pretty big hand in setting up the conditions for the current downturn. I agree. When the government gutted regulation of banking, they became complicit. When they scrapped Glass/Steagal they were a part of the problem. When they allowed the banks to create a gambling casino with crazy new financial instruments ,sold with practically no margins, they were part of the problem. But the ultimate responsibility was the financial sector and the banks themselves. They knew the dangers, but greed won out. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/98 "2009-09-11T19:59:54Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Finally, although I know you like to lay the blame for all the bad things at the feet of the market, government had a pretty big hand in setting up the conditions for the current downturn. Oh, I agree with that. My point is that it was a **conservative** government promoting **conservative** policies that dropped us in this swamp. And then you turn around and say that what we need to get out of the swamp is conservatism? Pull the other one, it’s got bells on it. Yeah, I know that many of today’s conservatives are doing all they can to distance themselves and “true” conservatism from the Bush Administration. But these guys were conservative enough for you conservatives to support and vote for in 2000 and 2004, so like it or not, you’re still going to be associated with them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/99 "2009-09-12T05:05:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What do you mean? Isn’t the national debt already nationalized, by definition? I guess I meant just tell our creditors to crew off (or hyperinflate the value of the bonds to nothing) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508/100 "2009-09-12T05:14:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > People smartened up, embraced global free trade and abandoned the grand schemes to manage industry from within government, lowered taxes, and the result was the longest economic expansion in history. Yeah because things are sooo good right now. Remember this all started before Obama took office. > [@](#): > > The problem today is that the other big problem of activist government was never addressed - the insane level of entitlement spending. And do you think the Republican tactic of scaring old folks into thinking the Democrats are trying to cut medicare is making it more or less likely that we will be able to have a rational discussion about thin anytime soon? > [@](#): > > If you thnk the world is moving away from markets and towards big government, here’s something to consider: The country weathering the current economic storm better than any other country in the G7 is Canada. We’re already out of recession, and in the last quarter we actually created new jobs, while other countries were happy to just see the rate of job loss slow down a little. We have almost no debt and a small deficit. Our unemployment rate is 1% lower than the U.S.'s, and that gap is starting to grow larger. You guys have a national health care system don’t you? Maybe that’s what did it? You guys didn’t have 8 years of Bush to reverse either. > [@](#): > > And guess what? Canada is the only country in the G7 that has been _shrinking_ the size of its government. We’ve also been lowering taxes dramatically - especially taxes on businesses and capital gains. > > Ten years ago, the situation was reversed. We had higher taxes than the U.S., more social programs, and a bigger government measured against GDP. Back then, our unemployment rate was 1-3% higher than the U.S’s. Shoot if we just got rid of taxes altogether, we would be a utopia. > [@](#): > > I will grant you that the U.S. appears to have taken a hard turn to the left. I also think that unless it backs away from this, times are going to get much harder for Americans. Actually I think this is all the aftershock of the hard right turn we took a while back. Its hard to blame todays problems on the "hard left"turn when Obama hasn’t been in office even a year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-conservatism/509508.md?page=6)