# The death of free speech **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 5, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703 "2003-09-05T12:18:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/1 "2003-09-05T12:18:42Z")
[Producers of Ass Clowns 3 face **50 years** in prison](http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/dont_quote_me/documents/03134927.asp) In short, producers of a pornographic video are being charged with obscenity. There is no charge that the video depicts minors or anything similar, it is merely alleged that the content steps across the nebulous boundary between “pornography” and “obscenity.” I may be a Relative Moralist Asshole™, but I believe that one should be allowed to do whatever the fuck one wants as long as one is not harming someone else. In this case, Zicari has produced a video of consensual sexual activities that, while most would find distasteful, no one, aside from the jurors at his trial, have been forced to watch. WHAT THE FUCK IS THE PROBLEM HERE? If you don’t like it, DON’T WATCH IT. Why is this illegal? If you are of legal age, you should be allowed to view or create whatever sick, disgusting, or perverted shit you want without fear of arrest, so long as all involved are consenting adults, as in this case. Aside from my rant on the very concept of obscenity law, why is THIS obscene? Manos: Hands of Fate lacked “serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value,” and it was probably more unpleasant to watch, also. The vast majority of porn movies are also devoid of value except as masturbation aides, does this mean they should be similarly illegal? I don’t fucking think so. I haven’t actually watched the video in question (now I find myself drawn to it…), but I think I could probably come up with SOME justification for it having value. Besides, if it had no value, no one would watch it, right? In conclusion, what goes wrong with a human being that makes them think “If I don’t like it, it should be illegal!” ---
**Author:** ![township](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@township](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/township)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/2 "2003-09-05T13:10:45Z")
Well, I am surprised that a film with a title like “Ass Clowns 3” was even reviewed for obscentiy. To provide objective commentary on your rant I would need to know just what “lines were crossed” in “Ass Clowns 3” that were not crossed in “Ass Clowns 1” and “Ass Clowns 2.” Also, do you beleive the legal struggle will delay the long awaited “Ass Clowns 4.” ---
**Author:** ![dinoboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dinoboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dinoboy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/3 "2003-09-05T13:27:07Z")
“Ass Clowns 3” is out already!?! And I haven’t even seen the first one yet! :smack: This sounds like an Ashcroft crusade (and I didn’t even check the link yet). Does this mean we’re all going to be forced, er, invited to watch what John Ashcroft wants us to? I hope he lets us keep ‘baywatch’. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![township](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@township](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/township)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/4 "2003-09-05T13:38:27Z")
I ain’t gonna watch no movie that features Ashcroft’s ass - I don’t care if watching it does “support the troops.” ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/5 "2003-09-05T13:42:07Z")
Well, free speech isn’t quite dead yet. The couple is charged at this time. They haven’t been convicted of anything. And if you’re wanting to moan about the death of free speech, moan about the Miller decision which put the definition of obscenity in the hands of any twelve people too dumb to get out of jury duty. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/6 "2003-09-05T17:55:38Z")
The category of “obscenity” needs to be done away with, and simply replaced with “indecency” (adults only type stuff). The line between simple pornography and obscentiy is impossible to draw. It’s purely a matter of taste, and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/7 "2003-09-05T20:58:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dinoboy \* > \*\*“Ass Clowns 3” is out already!?! And I haven’t even seen the first one yet! :smack: > \*\* You really need to watch the first two, or you won’t be able to follow the plot of the third one. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/8 "2003-09-05T21:14:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by township \* > \*\*Also, do you beleive the legal struggle will delay the long awaited “Ass Clowns 4.” \*\* God, I hope not. Ass Clowns 3 left so many unanswered questions… I think the most telling thing in the article linked to in the OP is the following: “(as Zicari told Nightline, the jurors who decide his fate will be the **only people ever to watch his movies against their will** )” (bolding mine) Why is there a dime of tax money being spent on this, when the only people who have to watch this do so voluntarily? Shouldn’t conservatives be _against_ this type of thing? Less government, spend less money, etc? ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/9 "2003-09-05T21:24:45Z")
> [@](#): > > … US Supreme Court in the 1973 case of Miller v. State of California. In that decision, the court ruled that material could be found obscene under local community standards if it was found to appeal to “the prurient interest,” if it depicted sexual content in “a patently offensive way,” and if it lacked “serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.” Yet somehow the producers of Fox television still roam free… ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/10 "2003-09-06T13:45:30Z")
I for one am glad for this decision; I’m afraid of clowns. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/11 "2003-09-06T14:37:51Z")
Especially _Ass_ clowns. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/12 "2003-09-07T01:43:51Z")
Do Ass Clowns wear asshats? ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/13 "2003-09-07T21:07:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > \*\*I for one am glad for this decision; I’m afraid of clowns. \*\* Well, you can see this film with impunity as it contains no actual “clowns.” You see, when the producers titled the film they used “artistic license” in naming it “Ass Clowns” - the film does, however contain “Asses,” so I guess the “artistic license” stuff only goes so far. ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheValley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/54ee81/32.png) [@LilyoftheValley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheValley)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/14 "2003-09-08T00:04:40Z")
[Dapper Clown Posse] Ass for clowns La la la la la la la Ass for clowns La la la la la la la [/Dapper Clown Posse] I can’t be the only one with this song stuck in my head now… ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/15 "2003-09-08T01:24:18Z")
From the article linked in the OP: > [@](#): > > The movies made by Extreme are disgusting, perverted, and hateful. They may even meet the legal definition of obscenity as handed down by the US Supreme Court in the 1973 case of Miller v. State of California. In that decision, the court ruled that material could be found obscene under local community standards if it was found to appeal to “the prurient interest,” if it depicted sexual content in “a patently offensive way,” and if it lacked “serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.” > > This standard is vague — deliberately so. As the late Supreme Court justice Potter Stewart once memorably said of obscenity, “I know it when I see it.” Sounds a bit like the new rule imposed by **Little Ed**. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/16 "2003-09-08T01:53:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Manos: Hands of Fate lacked “serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value,” and it was probably more unpleasant to watch, also. But it did inspire one hell of an MST3K episode. ---
**Author:** ![refusal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@refusal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/refusal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/17 "2003-09-08T12:13:14Z")
The section on pornography in Eric Schlosser’s Reefer Madness should be essential reading for anyone interested in this. The way the porn industry has been attacked by the government bears no relation to rational concerns about protecting children or the rights of actresses in the movies, and everything to do with personal moral crusades. The agents involved pick out targets based not on public interest but on the chance of getting a prosecution (which often depends on things like if they can get them to deliver to a particularly prudish county), and then hound them for years until they go out of business; often firms are driven out of business by these moral crusaders without any court judgments against the pornographers. It’s clear that American obscenity laws do not work because their enforcement is such a travesty. ---
**Author:** ![township](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@township](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/township)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/18 "2003-09-08T13:20:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by refusal \* > \*\*. It’s clear that American obscenity laws do not work because their enforcement is such a travesty. \*\* I am pretty sure that demand for the product figures in there as to why the laws don’t work, also. I think I might change my username to Ass Clown if I could figure out how. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/19 "2003-09-09T01:19:29Z")
Wow. I’ve never had a joke stepped on so hard by so many. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703/20 "2003-09-09T15:27:19Z")
They may have been the same joke. [This](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3952749#post3952749) certainly looks suspicious. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-free-speech/199703.md?page=2)