# The Death of Hollywood **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2000, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241 "2000-11-29T19:42:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2000, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/1 "2000-11-29T19:42:10Z")
In this year’s edition of **The World in 2001** by _The Economist_, Ben Stein predicts the impending demise of Hollywood. His article starts out by telling how the Roman Emperor Constantine had to rip reliefs from old tribunal arches to put on his because the skills to produce reliefs had disappeared. He thinks Hollywood has an analagous problem with its talent pool and hence no longer makes good movies. “When one sees a movie like ‘American Beauty’ and percieves its utter emptiness… one can only cry for the Hollywood that made movies that said something… Unless one sees a steady diet of Hollywood fare, it is hard to grasp how close to the bottom of the barrel Hollywood - creatively, dramatically and morally - has become.” He gives specific references to low points in the movies “Mall Rats” and “Road Trip”. He then argues that Hollywood no longer makes movies for adults, and that their uneven product is targeted at kids and teenagers (where the money is) who are fast becoming more interested in the Internet and video games. He talks about the remarkably high cost of making a blockbuster movie and the problems of DVD and VHS piracy. He mentions how rare it is to see an entire family at the movie theatre these days, whereas entire families went to see “High Noon” and “Star Wars”. I happen to agree with several of his points. It has been a while since I saw a family in the theatre. The dismal offerings (in successful, mainstream movies) like Coyote Ugly, etc. vastly outweigh the meaningful ones (Schindler’s List, etc.) more so than in the past although has always been the case. Piracy and the Internet will continue to be big problems. All the best movies I have seen recently seem to be foreign. Hollywood won’t die – worldwide sales and PR will keep it going. But is it becoming irrelevant? How many people think Hollywood these days would be **unable** to produce a classic like Casablanca? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2000, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/2 "2000-11-29T20:11:49Z")
It’s been a long time since you’ve seen a family at the movies? You obviously don’t have kids. Having a daughter has restricted and skewed my movie-going habits, but when we take her out we see LOTS of families. And I will disagree with you about the quality of at least family films – there are plenty of klunkers, as there always have been, but I’ve been impressed with the offerings from Pixar and Disney of late (at least the animated films). The storytelling, framing, and character remind me of old-time Hollywood. The ones we own stand up to repeated viewing (and if you have a kid, you know how “repeated” that can be.) Just remember “Casablanca” was a fluke. For every Casablanca you have countless Ritz brothers films, tearjerkers, and pointless gangster films. People have selective memories. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2000, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/3 "2000-11-29T20:21:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr\_Paprika \* > \*\* > > Hollywood won’t die – worldwide sales and PR will keep it going. But is it becoming irrelevant? How many people think Hollywood these days would be **unable** to produce a classic like Casablanca? > \*\* Hollywood is still capable of producing good movies. What we fail to realize is that Hollywood put out a lot of crap in every decade. The older movies we call classics are the ones that have stood the test of time like Casablanca. There are also movies which earned Academy Awards in their day that aren’t considered classics today. I tend to not like a lot of the movies that the critics seem to rave about. I thought American Beauty was a piece of crap even though I love Kevin Spacey. And don’t even get me started on Eyes Wide Shut. Hollywood is show business and they’re out to make money. But on occasion they still make pretty good movies. Just like they did in the past. Marc ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/4 "2000-11-29T20:22:42Z")
Dr. Paprika, people have been predicting the death of Hollywood since the early 1950’s, but the corpse seems pretty lively to me. Hollywood is aiming its product at teens? That isn’t news. I believe if you check industry sources you will find Hollywood has been doing this for some time. Increased competition from DVDs and the 'Net may force Hollywood to make some major changes, but I suspect it will continue to be a cultural force for quite some time ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2000, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/5 "2000-11-29T20:34:37Z")
> [@](#): > > People have selective memories. Amen. Poeple also have subjective aesthetic standards. Personall I find perceiving “utter emptiness” in _American Beauty_ akin to finding “fragments and contradictions” in _Casablanca_. Few movies of any age compare well to Casablanca, but I would much rather see _American Beauty_ again than be forced to sit through _Beach Blanket Bingo_ or _The Conqueror_. If you want a good (recent) family film from Hollywood I recommend _Toy Story 2_ or _Chicken Run_. ---
**Author:** ![lucie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed8c4c/32.png) [@lucie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucie)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/6 "2000-11-29T20:48:33Z")
We are talking about US film industry when we say “Hollywood”, right? Well, all the best and most original stuff has been coming from other countries for quite some time now, so who cares if Hollywood dies? With LOTR being a New Zealand project costing well over $300 m, the US doesn’t even have the corner on blockbusters any more. As for whether the internet will kill the motion picture industry, I don’t think so. These are very different media. If television, cable, and cheap videos couldn’t kill off theatrical movies, why should the internet. There are some things that just need to be seen really big. Until VR becomes cheap and good enough, I don’t think the movies are going to die. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2000, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/7 "2000-11-29T22:35:10Z")
Of course people enjoy predicting the death of successful things, people do have selective memories, Hollywood has always been about money and aimed its product accordingly. I don’t have kids. I am sure “Family” movies still attract families. The “PG-13” and “AA” ones I have seen recently didn’t seem to have too many, though. Most of the movies I have seen recently that deal with social issues in a meaningful way have been foreign. This is not where the money is, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![DavisMcDavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@DavisMcDavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavisMcDavis)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2000, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/8 "2000-11-29T22:44:09Z")
I like Ben Stein, but that’s one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard, next to that lame book written by Michael Medved about how Hollywood refused to make “family” movies, despite their high profit margins, due to some endemic evil or something. If you take the best movies of a decade, they will look better than the ten best movies of the second half of 1999. I fail to see how that would prove some sort of impending downfall. And I loved American Beauty. I’m not entirely sure why anyone would call it “utterly empty.” How will the internet affect Hollywood? Right now, I use it to buy tickets on Moviefone and order videos from Kozmo. Ever tried to watch a movie on the internet? Somehow a 2inch square fuzzy RealVideo fails to compare to a theater. DVD piracy won’t hurt Hollywood any more than VHS piracy has. ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/9 "2000-11-30T01:44:25Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi \* \*\* > [@](#): > > If you want a good (recent) family film from Hollywood I recommend _Toy Story 2_ or _Chicken Run_. \*\* I love it. Toy Story2 was a joint production between Disney and Pixar, which is based in Northern California, and Chicken Run is a British film. Teasing aside, Spiritus Mundi has a good point, this whole argument is subjective. Ben Stein seems to think that the talent pool in Hollywood is shallow. He doesn’t realize the studios have ALWAYS had to put out a tremendous amount of product, and it’s thus very rare to get the kind of chemistry between actor, director, and script that catches lightning in a bottle. Especially since film is probably the most collaborative of all the arts. It’s not just film that has to put out lots of product, either. For every Michelangelo’s “David” there are tens of thousands of little concrete cherubs in tens of thousands of gardens, each with a little tube that shoots water out of its willie. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/10 "2000-11-30T02:02:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I love it. Toy Story2 was a joint production between Disney and Pixar, which is based in Northern California, and Chicken Run is a British film. Disney is, and has been for many years, a major Hollywood studio. Nick Parks and Peter Lord are British, but Chicken Run was produced and distributed by Dreamworks, also a major Hollywood studio. ---
**Author:** ![ThisYearsGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@ThisYearsGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisYearsGirl)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/11 "2000-11-30T02:10:39Z")
Read “The Culture Industry” by Adorno and Horkheimer (some texts are available online). It was written in 1944, but it addresses a lot of the same issues of “dumbing down” movies that we talk about today. ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/12 "2000-11-30T16:58:20Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Disney is, and has been for many years, a major Hollywood studio. > > Nick Parks and Peter Lord are British, but Chicken Run was produced and distributed by Dreamworks, also a major Hollywood studio. \*\* I hate it when I have to explain my teasing, but it beats being thought of as a complete idiot. I know Disney and Dreamworks are Hollywood studios. My point is that while their Hollywood business muscle helped get those movies made, it was the creative impetus that was at least partially (Toy Story 2) or totally (Chicken Run) non-Hollywood based. I think the assertion in the OP was that Hollywood is in a creative decline; I agree that the business side of Hollywood, the studios, are in fine shape. Perhaps that’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![DavisMcDavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@DavisMcDavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavisMcDavis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/13 "2000-11-30T17:51:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airblairxxx \* > It’s not just film that has to put out lots of product, either. For every Michelangelo’s “David” there are tens of thousands of little concrete cherubs in tens of thousands of gardens, each with a little tube that shoots water out of its willie. \*\* These would all be copies of Mannekan Pis: > [@](#): > > Believe it or not, this little statue of a boy peeing is the pride and joy of Brussels-- Mannekan-Pis.  He has been around for centuries, has been kidnapped several times and has even received over 600 costumes from royalty all over the world. > > - [http://www9.siteamerica.com/risa02/netherla.htm](http://www9.siteamerica.com/risa02/netherla.htm) \* Photo is also available there. Those crazy Belgians! ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/14 "2000-11-30T21:06:53Z")
The OP said: > [@](#): > > How many people think Hollywood these days would be unable to produce a classic like Casablanca? [Casablanca](http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0034583): Directed by a Hungarian Starring: An American A Swede A Brit An Austro-Hungarian (or Italian, if you prefer) A German Another Brit Another Austro-Hungarian (or Slovak, if you prefer) [sub]Not that it really matters, of course. The important thing is that everybody in the workd fall in love with the wrok of Nick Park.[/sub] Cheese Gromit? ---
**Author:** ![drpepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@drpepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drpepper)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/15 "2000-11-30T23:15:39Z")
I don’t think there will ever be shortage of ‘brilliant’ filmmakers with a vision; it does seem to me, though, that the real talent (of the Casablanca type) isn’t consistently coming out of Hollywood so much anymore. I predict that there will be a basic bifurcation of the film industry between ‘Hollywood’ and ‘all other (ie, indie films and such)’ wherein the Hollywood product will be (hell, already is), much much more money- and consumerist- oriented (put Disney films in this category), while the other, more quality contingency grows much more in terms of quantity/market share. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/16 "2000-12-01T00:21:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lucie \* > \*\*We are talking about US film industry when we say “Hollywood”, right? Well, all the best and most original stuff has been coming from other countries for quite some time now, so who cares if Hollywood dies? With LOTR being a New Zealand project costing well over $300 m, the US doesn’t even have the corner on blockbusters any more. > \*\* Isn’t _Lord of the Rings_ being made by New Line Cinema? That’s a US company, if I’m not mistaken. Kind of like saying _Jurassic Park_ was made by Hawaii or that the Phillipines made _Apocalypse Now_. Sure, Peter Jackson is from New Zealand, but the cast is from all over the place, including the US, and the financial backing (which is what gets movies made) is coming from Hollywood. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/17 "2000-12-01T10:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dr\_Paprika \* > "When one sees a movie like ‘American Beauty’ and percieves its utter emptiness… one can only cry for the Hollywood that made movies that said something_\* Well, since the film was kinda about an empty man trying to recapture some meaning from his empty life…you were _supposed_ to percieve some emptiness. Not a happy, feel-good film, but a good one. Hollywood isn’t dying. There are still great films being made. There’s a lot of crap too. Kinda like baseball expansion, where the pitching gets diluted. Now, it’s writing that’s diluted. There are _sooo_ many people making movies, it stands to reason that a number of them are going to suck at it. As for studio executives, I think they don’t actually watch movies, they only read marketing reports. And there are a _lot_ of them out there, with more starting every day. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/18 "2000-12-01T11:29:35Z")
You could possibly rephrase the question as, “Is the business side of Hollywood reducing creative risk-taking in favour of mass-market appeal?” Personally, I don’t believe Hollywood is incapable of producing clever, well-made, intelligent films, and there have been some really good movies recently. On the other hand, I feel that in the last few years there’s been an increasing reluctance to produce anything that the standard fare of romantic comedies or cop-breaking-all-the-rules films. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/19 "2000-12-01T13:51:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Dr\_Paprika \* > > "When one sees a movie like ‘American Beauty’ and percieves its utter emptiness… one can only cry for the Hollywood that made movies that said something_\* > > Well, since the film was kinda about an empty man trying to recapture some meaning from his empty life…you were _supposed_ to percieve some emptiness. Not a happy, feel-good film, but a good one. > > Hollywood isn’t dying. There are still great films being made. There’s a lot of crap too. Kinda like baseball expansion, where the pitching gets diluted. Now, it’s writing that’s diluted. There are _sooo_ many people making movies, it stands to reason that a number of them are going to suck at it. As for studio executives, I think they don’t actually watch movies, they only read marketing reports. And there are a _lot_ of them out there, with more starting every day. \*\* The problem with this is that Hollywood is NOT making more movies than it used to. There are more production companies, but major studios make far fewer films than they did - primarily because of the expense - so overall the growth in releases has lagged behind the growth in population. mattk said: > [@](#): > > **Personally, I don’t believe Hollywood is incapable of producing clever, well-made, intelligent films, and there have been some really good movies recently. On the other hand, I feel that in the last few years there’s been an increasing reluctance to produce anything that the standard fare of romantic comedies or cop-breaking-all-the-rules films.** When was this _NOT_ the case? Go back and look a coprehensive list of Hollywood releases from, say, 1947, and you’ll find most of them are fluffy romantic comedies or fairly mindless Westerns and war films. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241/20 "2000-12-01T13:56:40Z")
**RickJay** : absolutely. Obviously the studios have always wanted hit films, but to my mind they seem increasingly unwilling to gamble on new ideas (with a few exceptions), rather sticking to tried and true formulas for hits. This might also go some way to explaining the immense fees guaranteed box-office draws certain actors can command. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-hollywood/43241.md?page=2)