# the death of shall **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 5, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570 "2019-03-05T14:21:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/21 "2019-03-08T15:13:44Z")
To me, the use of “shall” as an obligation is carried by the word “must,” or, to be more formal, “is required to.” The latter is what I would expect in legalese. (If there’s a common term for a way of speaking that ends in -ese" but isn’t its own language, I think it makes sense to call it a dialect.) The question “Shall I?” and other such uses are handled by “should I?” In fact, I refer to it as the “should” or “ought to” meaning of “shall,” as I can’t think of another word to describe it. As for “Shall we dance?” that’s covered by “May I have this dance?” or even “Let’s dance,” if it’s intended less formally. No matter the usage of “shall,” I always seem to be able to come up with something that carries the same meaning. This would explain why I (and most people I know) rarely if ever use it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/22 "2019-03-08T16:33:55Z")
When I started studying English in middle school, I was taught that “shall” was used at the first person, and “will” for the others : I shall You will He will … Was that complete nonsense or did it use to be correct? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/23 "2019-03-08T16:45:41Z")
Shall got associated with very formal writing. People avoided it in casual conversation because it sounded pretentious. I’m not surprised shall is becoming archaic. ---
**Author:** ![Jamiedarke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3da27b/32.png) [@Jamiedarke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamiedarke)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/24 "2019-03-08T17:53:37Z")
Child at School: Can I leave the room Miss? Teacher: Of course you can but you shall not. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/25 "2019-03-08T18:51:28Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > When I started studying English in middle school, I was taught that “shall” was used at the first person, and “will” for the others : > > I shall > You will > He will > … > Was that complete nonsense or did it use to be correct? It was always complete nonsense that for a long time used to be taught as correct. In the 17th century, certain authors started asserting that the ordinary future tense was properly “I shall/you will/he will” and emphatic assertions were properly “I will/you shall/he shall,” but there’s no evidence that this distinction was derived from any actual usage. Wikipedia has a summary of the issue – [Shall and will - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shall_and_will#Prescriptivist_distinction) ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/26 "2019-03-11T20:13:47Z")
_Shall_ is probably the most litigated word, at least in the US. Glad to see we’re moving away from its use in law and toward more concrete language. ---
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/27 "2019-03-13T18:35:09Z")
I am more worried about willst, than shall Willst though marry me? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/28 "2019-03-13T19:56:37Z")
“Shall” is also a standard term in engineering. Every requirement is written as a “shall” statement. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/29 "2019-03-13T20:03:34Z")
> [@Jamiedarke](#): > > Child at School: Can I leave the room Miss? > > Teacher: Of course you can but you shall not. That’s not really correct. The teacher should respond, you may not. That denies permission. “You shall not” is really only correct, if the teacher intends to make sure it doesn’t happen beyond denying permission. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/30 "2019-03-14T03:45:19Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > That’s not really correct. The teacher should respond, you may not. That denies permission. “You shall not” is really only correct, if the teacher intends to make sure it doesn’t happen beyond denying permission. I’m not sure I understand the distinction here. Of course “you may” means you have permission to (but don’t have to), and “you shall” means you must do it. But “may not” and “shall not” both mean you must not do it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570/31 "2019-03-14T04:12:34Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > The meanings of modals (and periphrastic modals) can shift between interrogative and indicative, and between affirmative and negative, depending on the which function they are serving, and modals have various very distinct functions. They can express degrees of probability/certainty, obligation/prohibition, willingness/intent, advisability, and of course, they serve social purposes in speech, by modulating deference. Wow! I wish I could talk like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-shall/830570.md?page=1)