# the death of the Dope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695 "2019-08-15T12:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/301 "2019-08-21T17:43:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > When you insult an asshole for being fat, he probably won’t know or care. You know who will notice and probably will care? Other fat people in the thread, who are being told, _whether you meant it or not_, that they deserve to be insulted for being fat. Quoted for truth. > [@bobot](#): > > If Trump has a body capable of being shamed, he can take his own freely dispensed advise and get off of his lazy ass and get some exercise. Case in point. Almost everybody’s got “a body capable of being shamed”, one way or another. And many fat people are getting a hell of a lot more exercise than many thin people. You want to call Trump’s ass lazy, go ahead. But what’s wrong with Trump is not his weight. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/302 "2019-08-21T18:07:29Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Quoted for truth. > > Case in point. > > Almost everybody’s got “a body capable of being shamed”, one way or another. And many fat people are getting a hell of a lot more exercise than many thin people. You want to call Trump’s ass lazy, go ahead. But what’s wrong with Trump is not his weight. I think that fat people can understand that trump is being shamed for being an ignorant hypocrite, about weight and exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/303 "2019-08-21T18:10:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No, it was the first example that came to mind. But my point is that it doesn’t even qualify as an example of what I was asking for, namely threads supporting the claim that the SDMB has become intolerant of “disagreeing with the party line”. The thread you’re referring to was chock-full of disagreement. As **iiandyiiii** noted, that was indeed a dumb thread started by one poster who was, as I noted, incoherently raving about “right wingers”. But it’s a shit example if what you’re responding to is a request for cites that the Dope is intolerant of rational disagreement: > [@bump](#): > > I’m not necessarily talking about Trump-era idiocy. I’m talking more about garden-variety political disagreements- the role of government, property rights vs. public good, defense spending vs. social programs, etc… > > NONE of those things are fixed in stone, ignorant or idiotic, on either side. > > But the progressive side has basically reframed the debate around here such that disagreeing with the party line about say… defense spending, and the debate takes on the feel that they’re trying to fight your ignorance. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Got a cite for any specific example(s) of this? Because I personally haven’t encountered a recent thread on, say, defense spending, nor do I think of it as a subject about which rational people can’t disagree. > [@Bone](#): > > For real? There is a current thread in GD equating right wing folks with racists. Or those that support gun rights as racists. The board isn’t very open towards conservatives or right leaning views at all. > [@Bone](#): > > You ask for an example, one is provided. Then it’s criticized as not representative. Well yes, if I ask for an example of A and you “provide” an example that doesn’t in fact show any evidence of A, then I’m going to criticize it as not representative. You can hardly object to that. > [@Bone](#): > > Consider you’re actively participating in a thread about the tea party calling them racists. If you mean the current GD thread where I made [the following remark](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21813178&postcount=102): > [@Kimstu](#): > > ISTM that a significant chunk of the Tea Party was never really so much about fiscal policy as about trying to find a “respectable” platform onto which to displace concerns they weren’t comfortable confronting or admitting to: primarily racial resentment caused by US demographic shifts and Obama’s election, and anxieties about loss of economic security and social status that they can’t bring themselves to admit are largely the result of policies championed by wealthy conservatives. and you’re pointing to that as an example of SDMB “intolerance of disagreement”, that’s ridiculous. What seems to be chapping your hide is merely the existence of any Doper making any statements that are in any way critical of any broad subset of conservative or right-wing views. Okay, if that’s how you feel, but like I said, it’s a bit snowflakey of you. And it certainly doesn’t constitute any evidence that anybody else around here is trying to suppress or forbid “disagreeing with the party line”, whatever that is. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/304 "2019-08-21T18:32:30Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I think that fat people can understand that trump is being shamed for being an ignorant hypocrite, about weight and exercise. Then shame him for hypocrisy, and in the context of specific things he’s said about other people’s weight. Randomly throwing his weight into things it has nothing to do with has, on many people, not the effect you’re claiming for it but instead the effect of claiming that his weight is one of the things wrong with him. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/305 "2019-08-21T19:08:12Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Then shame him for hypocrisy, and in the context of specific things he’s said about other people’s weight. Randomly throwing his weight into things it has nothing to do with has, on many people, not the effect you’re claiming for it but instead the effect of claiming that his weight is one of the things wrong with him. I’m going to not do that. But his weight is a part of his character isn’t it? And he brought the issue in himself, due either to lack of self awareness, or else gaslighting. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/306 "2019-08-21T19:29:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But that’s a dumb thread that most Dopers, liberal or conservative, appear to recognize was dumb. By my reading, at least. If that demonstrates anything about the Dope, it’s that most liberal and conservative Dopers can come together to crap on dumb threads. That was beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/307 "2019-08-21T19:45:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But that’s a dumb thread that most Dopers, liberal or conservative, appear to recognize was dumb. By my reading, at least. If that demonstrates anything about the Dope, it’s that most liberal and conservative Dopers can come together to crap on dumb threads. It’s a regular kumbaya-mama-so-fat. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/308 "2019-08-21T20:12:17Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I But his weight is a part of his character isn’t it? . No, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/309 "2019-08-21T20:46:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But my point is that it doesn’t even qualify as an example of what I was asking for, namely threads supporting the claim that the SDMB has become intolerant of “disagreeing with the party line”. The thread you’re referring to was chock-full of disagreement. There was disagreement largely about the merits and/or effectiveness of the proposal, not the underlying assumption about racism. There’s more examples of course, but it is hard to take seriously the view that the SDBM isn’t unwelcoming to conservative viewpoints. What with [personal responsibility being racist](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=879266), [conservative values being based on bigotry](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21753600#post21753600), and not being sufficiently outraged regarding US deportation practices is like [concentration camps](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21799668&postcount=758), [gulags, killing fields](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21801094&postcount=779), and [genocide](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21803133&postcount=813). Or that [wanting power delegated locally](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19154564&postcount=33) in [hopes of greater liberty is racist](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19156593&postcount=56). [Or opposition](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19109978&postcount=41) to [the ACA](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19110373&postcount=63) is [racist](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19109730&postcount=24). It’s fine. I’ll continue thinking that a number of progressives and liberals are like fascists, so it’s all simpatico. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/310 "2019-08-21T21:01:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > When you insult an asshole for being fat, he probably won’t know or care. You know who will notice and probably will care? Other fat people in the thread, who are being told, _whether you meant it or not_, that they deserve to be insulted for being fat. Are you fat? I’m fat. You don’t speak for me. I don’t feel shame about being fat, regret maybe, but not shame, because I’m not hurting anyone but myself (and if you throw healthcare costs at me, I’m going to rightly call you a hypocrite). > [@drad\_dog](#): > > I think that fat people can understand that trump is being shamed for being an ignorant hypocrite, about weight and exercise. This one does. That said, I think it’s pointless criticizing 45 for any personal characteristics, either physical or character-related. Attack him on his policies with better policies that get better results, and stop singing to the choir. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/311 "2019-08-21T21:07:31Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > That said, I think it’s pointless criticizing 45 for any personal characteristics, either physical or character-related. Attack him on his policies with better policies that get better results, and stop singing to the choir. His policies are the least of his troubling characteristics. I agree it doesn’t help to call him fat. But his deficient character, stupidity, immoral and corrupt behavior, and surrounding himself by the worst of the worst are all fair game. They make the country worse and put our future in peril. The fact that he’s fat doesn’t hurt us in the least. In fact, Obama could gain 100 pounds and I’d still admire him greatly. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/312 "2019-08-21T21:34:12Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > When you insult an asshole for being fat, he probably won’t know or care. You know who will notice and probably will care? Other fat people in the thread, who are being told, _whether you meant it or not_, that they deserve to be insulted for being fat. I’m a fat dude - it was recently determined that I weigh more than both my parents put together, which means that my fat alone weighs as much as an adult human. And when I hear somebody calling Trump fat, I hear people pointing out that he’s a liar and a tool. The fatass has had his pet doctor write lies into official government documents to pretend he’s not as much of a fatass as his fat ass makes him. That said, I don’t really notice people calling him fat much - after all, what _really_ bothers him are his tiny, tiny hands. His tiny, babylike hands. And the fun part about _that_ bit of body-shaming is that it’s Trump-specific; he’s the first and _only_ instance I’ve heard of somebody being bothered by having small hands. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/313 "2019-08-21T23:40:26Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m a fat dude - it was recently determined that I weigh more than both my parents put together, which means that my fat alone weighs as much as an adult human. And when I hear somebody calling Trump fat, I hear people pointing out that he’s a liar and a tool. “Fat” = “liar and tool”? Interesting definition of the term. When I hear people calling Trump fat, I hear them saying that they’re opposed to Trump, yes. And I presume that they’re opposed to him for reasons in addition to his weight. But I also hear them saying that calling somebody fat is, and ought to be, an insult. I’m not ashamed of being fat; but I don’t like it assumed that it’s suitable to think of the word as insulting. Mileage, obviously, varies. Is it necessary for a particular use of language to annoy absolutely everybody in the insulted category before people who don’t want to insult bystanders start to think about choosing different words? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/314 "2019-08-21T23:43:57Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > “Fat” = “liar and tool”? Interesting definition of the term. See, now this is why it’s important to read whole paragraphs, rather than just getting halfway through and stopping. You come off looking like a moron for overlooking where I explained away your confusion _right there_. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/315 "2019-08-21T23:53:03Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > “Fat” = “liar and tool”? Interesting definition of the term. > > … Because he claims he’s in optimal shape, see. That’s a lie. If trump can survive a light jog around the White House, I’ll donate $100 to whatever his favorite non-profit is that doesn’t bear the name Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/316 "2019-08-21T23:55:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > See, now this is why it’s important to read whole paragraphs, rather than just getting halfway through and stopping. You come off looking like a moron for overlooking where I explained away your confusion _right there_. Good Christ, you are the most consistently smug AND wrong person I’ve encountered in quite some while. Given this venue, that is really something. Are you sure you aren’t footwear? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/317 "2019-08-21T23:57:19Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Good Christ, you are the most consistently smug AND wrong person I’ve encountered in quite some while. Given this venue, that is really something. Are you sure you aren’t footwear? I’ll cop to smug, and smugly say that while you may _think_ I’m wrong all the time, well, that says more about you than me. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/318 "2019-08-22T00:17:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > See, now this is why it’s important to read whole paragraphs, rather than just getting halfway through and stopping. You come off looking like a moron for overlooking where I explained away your confusion _right there_. I read the whole paragraph, I just didn’t bother quoting the whole thing. And I was not in the least confused. You appear to be the one who’s confused, because you apparently can’t tell the difference between ‘Trump’s a tool for lying about his weight’ and using the word “fat” itself as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/319 "2019-08-22T01:35:22Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’ll cop to smug, and smugly say that while you may _think_ I’m wrong all the time, well, that says more about you than me. 🆒 Whatever you say, Argyle. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/320 "2019-08-22T02:08:19Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > it is hard to take seriously the view that the SDBM isn’t unwelcoming to conservative viewpoints. I have no problem acknowledging that there are a lot of individual Dopers who strongly oppose many conservative viewpoints, which seems to be all you’re actually providing evidence for. What I was asking **bump** for cites about, on the other hand, was his claim that the SDMB in general was somehow operating as an “echo chamber” trying to shut down “disagreement with the party line” on subjects where rational people can disagree. I still don’t know why you jumped into that exchange between me and **bump** when your suggested example didn’t actually pertain to the subject. > [@Bone](#): > > It’s fine. I’ll continue thinking that a number of progressives and liberals are like fascists Make up your mind: When a lot of individual Dopers strongly oppose many conservative viewpoints, do you consider that _“super tedious”_ and _“unappealing”_ and a lack of _“openness”_ and a reason why _“engaging just isn’t worth it”_, as you claimed earlier, or do you consider it _“fine”_ because you are equally entitled to strongly oppose many progressive and liberal viewpoints? What you’re exhibiting here is a self-contradictory mishmash of resentment that many conservative views are so generally unpopular on the Dope, and denial that you’re complaining about many conservative views being so generally unpopular on the Dope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695.md?page=17)