# the death of the Dope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695 "2019-08-15T12:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/21 "2019-08-15T14:33:11Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > How many times have posters received warnings about commenting on Trump’s penis? How many people are banned for calling him “small hands”? Zero I bet. Has Mandy Jo ever condemned anyone for this type of male body shaming? I doubt it. > > Talk about hypocrisy. That’s the real death of Dope. When the rules are applied uniformly, there can be better discussion. So says the one that gets burned by posting fake information from troll central. Remember, a lot of the discussion is about finding if one’s sources are bullshit or not, that is the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/22 "2019-08-15T14:35:25Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > On a broader level, this touches on a core issue that was mentioned in two threads - one from months ago, and one from recently. First it was someone arguing that some ideas are so offensive that they should not be permitted even if written politely, and then recently it was the complaints about \*\*nate’s \*\*“when I see an attractive woman, i think…” thread - who were arguing that despite \*\*nate \*\*not having flagrantly violated the rules, his speech was still unpleasant to many posters. > > So the elephant in the room that I think has gone unaddressed for months is this: Do we allow offensive speech in the Dope if it is written in a polite-sounding way, or do we ban offensive speech because it is by its very nature offensive, no matter how politely written? Replace offensive to offensive to a particular clique. > [@LAZombie](#): > > How many times have posters received warnings about commenting on Trump’s penis? How many people are banned for calling him “small hands”? Zero I bet. Has Mandy Jo ever condemned anyone for this type of male body shaming? I doubt it. > > Talk about hypocrisy. That’s the real death of Dope. When the rules are applied uniformly, there can be better discussion. Exactly. It’s Animal Farm. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/23 "2019-08-15T14:38:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So the elephant in the room that I think has gone unaddressed for months is this: Do we allow offensive speech in the Dope if it is written in a polite-sounding way, or do we ban offensive speech because it is by its very nature offensive, no matter how politely written? I don’t think there is a cut and dried rule on this. Like everything else in life, context determines the outcome. That said, generally I think the Dope comes down on the side politely written offensive speech. Meaning we talk about things that we don’t agree about, or that are unpalatable, as long as we are respectful. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/24 "2019-08-15T14:39:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So the elephant in the room that I think has gone unaddressed for months is this: Do we allow offensive speech in the Dope if it is written in a polite-sounding way, or do we ban offensive speech because it is by its very nature offensive, no matter how politely written? How about this: when _multiple_ women point out _specific_ language that they find objectifying, and provide specific examples of language that could have been used instead that would still allow the conversation to continue, maybe we could listen to them instead of arguing why they’re wrong? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/25 "2019-08-15T14:43:16Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > How many times have posters received warnings about commenting on Trump’s penis? How many people are banned for calling him “small hands”? Zero I bet. Has Mandy Jo ever condemned anyone for this type of male body shaming? I doubt it. > > Talk about hypocrisy. That’s the real death of Dope. When the rules are applied uniformly, there can be better discussion. I’ve seen this stuff moderated before, though I don’t have a link handy. Do you report it when you see it? If not, then the moderators may not see it. In my understanding, such things in Elections or GD would, indeed, be moderate-able. Which would be absolutely fine with me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/26 "2019-08-15T14:45:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Replace offensive to offensive to a particular clique. > > Exactly. It’s Animal Farm. You’re not very bright, are you? 🙂 What you are supporting here is one that confuses an attack to Agent Orange that is reprehensible by already being an asshole to many others just for how they look like or their origins. On the other hand what me and many others see from some conservatives and criticized about, are general attacks to women or minorities with no specific reasons. Bigotry in essence. Now, if personal insults directed to a poster did take place outside the pit one should report them. ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/27 "2019-08-15T14:47:28Z")
MaryAnn…my mom was a red head, too close to home. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/28 "2019-08-15T14:47:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You’re not very bright, are you? 🙂 > > What you are supporting here is one that confuses an attack to a person that is reprehensible by already being an asshole to many others just for how they look like or their origins. On the other hand what me and many others see from some conservatives and criticized about, are general attacks to women or minorities with no specific reasons. Bigotry in essence. I give him more credit than you do. He knows it isn’t the same, he uses arguments like this to derail the thread and make it about something else. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/29 "2019-08-15T15:39:01Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > engineer-comp-geek shut the thread down because it had derailed by the usual cast of suspects ( **SlackerInc** , **Shodan** , **UltraVires** ). So, instead of telling the usual cast of suspects to stop derailing the thread, it gest shut down. The usual cast of characters are able to shut down discussions they don’t like through their trolling. \*\*Elbows \*\*([https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=880385](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=880385)) tries to point this out and her thread is locked. So there you have it, the misogynists have decried that the topic of misogyny on the Dope is forbidden, and the mods through their fecklessness enforce this policy. Not to discuss the moderation but there really wasn’t any more to be added to that 6 page thread. All that was left were the attempts to sandbag movement on the issue. Frankly, elbows’ complaint thread was kinda stupid, as is the last sentence of the paragraph I just quoted. Engineer Comp Geek flat out declared that complain all you like, we’re moving forward on addressing misogyny with the full backing of the admins. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/30 "2019-08-15T15:43:18Z")
When I say something that some people find offensive (usually sexist or misogynistic) I make a genuine effort to not say that anymore AND to change my thinking. The Offensive Half Dozen could read the room for once and either change their tune or move on. Nobody’s buying what they’re selling and have been selling for a decade or two, so why bother trying? I believe that management has grown lax in their use of the ban hammer, and suspension gives one time to reassess ones behaviour. [junior mod] However, all discussion of board policy belongs in ATMB. [/junior mod] d&r ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/31 "2019-08-15T15:44:20Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > Even when threads don’t get locked, I just stop visiting those threads once the usual cast shows up and proceeds to take huge shits in them. You forgot a couple in the star cast listing like HD and WF. This is the best advice. Or keep visiting the thread and posting in it, while completely ignoring the thread-shitters. Completely ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/32 "2019-08-15T15:57:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This is the best advice. > Or keep visiting the thread and posting in it, while completely ignoring the thread-shitters. Completely ignore them. The ignore function is far from perfect though, thanks to the quoting function among a few other issues. Of course you can just glance past their blatherings but that doesn’t fix when threads get derailed. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/33 "2019-08-15T16:05:14Z")
Definitely thought this said “Death of the Pope”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/34 "2019-08-15T16:08:32Z")
As a man, I’ve been posting less and less lately for exactly this reason. I don’t feel comfortable on a forum where so many posts are so skeevy, and where people complaining about this are treated like crap while the people causing all this are tolerated. Obvious trolls are obvious, yet we bend over backwards to avoid banning them. Well, I’m done. If the Powers that Be value posters like Octopus and SlackerInc above the multiple (mostly but not exclusively female) posters who’ve _repeatedly_ told us how uncomfortable they are here, then this isn’t the kind of site I’d want to post on. I think trying to change things here is a waste of time. Too many of us are happy to stick our heads in the sand and demand proof that people are actually leaving. Time to move on. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/35 "2019-08-15T16:09:28Z")
People have a right to be an asshole, and the rest of us have the right to explain to that person in detail over long repetition that they’re an asshole. That said, there are cases where certain people are known to simply derail certain topics (e.g., Diogenes the Cynic on any discussion of polygamous/polyamorous relationships) with no ability to rein themselves in and simply state their position and allow the conversation to go on. I haven’t followed the discussions of these posters in any of the related threads so I have no idea whether they do fall under that heading but, if they do, I’d say that it’s reasonable to tell them that they have to learn that skill or avoid those topics. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/36 "2019-08-15T16:13:45Z")
I don’t see myself leaving voluntarily at any point. That said, I’m gonna be _pissed_ if the Dope stops being a thing before September 28, when I get my twenty-year pin. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/37 "2019-08-15T16:15:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not about a crusade or anything like that – it’s about whether this is a nice and welcoming place that sanctions assholery when it drives people away. No one has to be here – they choose to come here. And some folks don’t want to come here if they think there’s a high chance they’ll come across objectifying or hateful language even in threads that aren’t about objectification, misogyny, bigotry, or similar topics. I’d rather that women will see this as a welcoming place in which objectifying language is sanctioned, than a place in which misogynists and objectifers see as welcoming in which many women would prefer not to spend their time. > > I value the presence of these women (and those who feel similarly) far, far more than the perceived rhetorical freedom (or even presence) of those who routinely use objectifying/misogynistic/hateful language. I hope the board leadership and management does too. **Shodan** , openly and repeatedly lied about a personal experience _I_ had. Blatantly and repeatedly lied, even after my pointing out that he was “misrepresenting” what had happened. So I called him a liar. Because he was, in fact, lying. As we know, when calling assholes out as liars, the people calling them out gets punished. _It’s literally in the rules._ Somebody can lie - that’s cool. But calling them a liar gets you warned/banned? Sometimes this place reminds me of the failing civilization in Hal Clement’s _Half-Life_ where the rules of communication engagement are directly causing the failure of the very society that those rules are meant to support: A rule which says you can’t call out liars as liars only benefits the liars. Rules that say you can’t call out misogyny only benefits the misogynists. So, after 20 years of largely ignoring the board drama that always seems to be going on, I am going to say that the moderation of this Board has lost its direction. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/38 "2019-08-15T16:17:04Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > To the broader topic raised by the OP, the issue is what the community wants its standards to be. If certain posters are sucking all the oxygen out of a thread, then we need to deal with that. I think that means we need to report issues when we see them, and we need to make personal choices about whether we engage with posters who are threadshitting, or whether we’re going to work around them. Some of these posters are like fire, and we’re giving them oxygen. > > I would say, however, that I have a strong preference for NOT losing good posters because a handful of negative ones are ruining things. Who is more reprehensible in this scenario? The trolls, who are doing what they do, i.e. purposefully trying to prevent meaningful discussion, especially on certain topics, or those other posters whom we don’t label but who seem constitutionally unable to just let troll posts sit there and fester. Maybe we need another Omnibus thread calling out those who can’t leave a steaming pile of turds well enough alone. I know who’s at the top of my list, he’s pulling it in this thread too. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/39 "2019-08-15T16:18:06Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > engineer-comp-geek shut the thread down because it had derailed by the usual cast of suspects ( **SlackerInc** , **Shodan** , **UltraVires** ). So, instead of telling the usual cast of suspects to stop derailing the thread, it gest shut down. The usual cast of characters are able to shut down discussions they don’t like through their trolling. Yeah, this was egregious. Two mods saw the issue and yet decided to to just close the thread which is exactly the desired effect by the usual suspects. I’m so tired of seeing any thread about rape or sexual assault just be dog-piled by misogynists. The comment that misogyny will not be tolerated rings rather hollow in the face of the mods repeatedly deciding not to take any actual steps to address the problem. They have mod notes, topic bans, suspensions and warnings at hand but instead choose to just shut down the thread. It’s not a surprise though after the shit moderating on racism. I’ll be sorry to see the Dope die but that’s the inevitable result of having some posters who are so prolific and so intent in ensuring that others are unwelcome. Those others have left and will continue to leave. The consequences are entirely on the admin and mod staff here, especially after they’ve commented indicating that they are aware of the problem posters and understand the issue that those posters are not trying to engage in good faith dialogue. Choosing not to act is a decision and they should be prepared to both accept the consequences of that decision as well as take ownership for it. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/40 "2019-08-15T16:19:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Look at ATMB we have posters telling others fuck you or calling people trolls. Posters who know the rules but don’t care. They think they are above the rules. Yet, people are warned or mod noted for such language in ATMB. Ain’t it amazing how well the system works? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695.md?page=3)