# the death of the Dope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695 "2019-08-15T12:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/381 "2019-08-23T18:21:02Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > To be fair, there is a frequently-expressed opinion that the moderators are far too lenient on conservatives who post on the forums, especially those who are often referred to in the Pit as trolls. That could be interpreted (in an extreme way) as a wish that all conservatives be kicked out. Well, sort of. The Usual Suspects on the SDMB want conservatives - that is, non-progressives - around, sort of. But not to engage with them - just to scream at them and Pit them and bait them and snipe at them and misrepresent them so that the non-progressives blow up and get Banned. Then the Usual Suspects can pat themselves on the back for another victory and look around for someone else to be offended by. The ones who are called trolls are the ones who don’t fall for the tactics and blow up and get Banned. The “mods are too lenient on conservatives” is short hand, very often, for "I’ve reported him over and over for posting things I don’t like - why won’t you Ban him?’ > [@k9bfriender](#): > > For instance, given the comments that you make in GD threads about your beliefs about the motives of your debate opponents, I really don’t think that you are joking here, and that you really do see liberals and progressives as fascists. How welcoming is that? I’m not **Bone** , of course, but FWIW I don’t think all liberals and progressives are fascists. If they’re like you, they’re just being deliberately stupid. If that helps. So, welcome to the SDMB, moron! 🙂 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/382 "2019-08-23T18:32:34Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The board isn’t very open towards conservatives or right leaning views at all. That’s a natural result of its ignorance-fighting orientation. > [@](#): > > This isn’t helped by the fact that so many conservative arguments are often presented poorly. Is it the presentation or the content? I think we can all get past clumsy wording and understand the meaning. If an argument simply sucks, it’s the fault of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/383 "2019-08-23T18:34:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, sort of. > > The Usual Suspects on the SDMB want conservatives - that is, non-progressives - around, sort of. But not to engage with them - just to scream at them and Pit them and bait them and snipe at them and misrepresent them so that the non-progressives blow up and get Banned. Then the Usual Suspects can pat themselves on the back for another victory and look around for someone else to be offended by. The ones who are called trolls are the ones who don’t fall for the tactics and blow up and get Banned. God, the whining! It must feel so embiggening to be the scrappy underdog. Myself I’d be thrilled to debate interesting topics with intelligent and informed debate opponents. I’d like it even better if they could engage in the debate without degrading rapidly into whining, insults, and lies. (The latter especially since in GD you’re not allowed to call out liars.) If conservatives are _capable_ of engaging in engaging debate, bring 'em on! More! MORE! **MORE!** Instead we get people who are unable to honestly defend their political side for relatively obvious reasons, and rather than accepting that they backed the shitty horse and reacting accordingly, instead choose to embrace an alternate reality where they’re neither the villain nor backing the villain. And from within the alternate reality it looks like nobody else is debating honestly and things inevitably downspiral from there. It’s a total mess. > [@Shodan](#): > > The “mods are too lenient on conservatives” is short hand, very often, for "I’ve reported him over and over for posting things I don’t like - why won’t you Ban him?’ “posting things I don’t like” meaning “trolling”, mostly. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/384 "2019-08-23T18:38:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, sort of. > > The Usual Suspects on the SDMB want conservatives - that is, non-progressives - around, sort of. But not to engage with them - just to scream at them and Pit them and bait them and snipe at them and misrepresent them so that the non-progressives blow up and get Banned. Then the Usual Suspects can pat themselves on the back for another victory and look around for someone else to be offended by. The ones who are called trolls are the ones who don’t fall for the tactics and blow up and get Banned. Thank you for another example of the broad brushing that you like to do around here. > [@](#): > > The “mods are too lenient on conservatives” is short hand, very often, for "I’ve reported him over and over for posting things I don’t like - why won’t you Ban him?’ > I’m not **Bone** , of course, but FWIW I don’t think all liberals and progressives are fascists. If they’re like you, they’re just being deliberately stupid. If that helps. I do try to keep my responses simple enough for even you to be able to understand, and that is a deliberate action. So, you are welcome. > [@](#): > > So, welcome to the SDMB, moron! 🙂 I know that it is hard for you to keep track, but I’ve actually be here for a little while now. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/385 "2019-08-23T18:49:36Z")
Sure seems like a long time. Like visiting the dentist. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/386 "2019-08-23T18:51:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sure seems like a long time. Like visiting the dentist. Dentist. Drills. All you hear is bzzzzzzzzz? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/387 "2019-08-23T18:51:43Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > **From this point on, staying on the topic shall be considered thread shitting.** > > The Powers That Be. As the most recent evidence shows, your shitting on a different thread was because, while keeping it on topic, your post was from a tweeter troll that was lying to you. So then instead of learning how to look for good cites or good sources of information you ignore or double down on your sorry sources. I will always wonder why is that posters like you launch hate or dislike to the ones that have better sources or evidence while you “forget” to send to your sources, like the troll you cited, that hate and dislike for doing the worst thing really: they did deceive you. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/388 "2019-08-23T18:53:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, sort of. > > The Usual Suspects on the SDMB want conservatives - that is, non-progressives - around, sort of. But not to engage with them - just to scream at them and Pit them and bait them and snipe at them and misrepresent them so that the non-progressives blow up and get Banned. Then the Usual Suspects can pat themselves on the back for another victory and look around for someone else to be offended by. The ones who are called trolls are the ones who don’t fall for the tactics and blow up and get Banned. > > The “mods are too lenient on conservatives” is short hand, very often, for "I’ve reported him over and over for posting things I don’t like - why won’t you Ban him?’ > I’m not **Bone** , of course, but FWIW I don’t think all liberals and progressives are fascists. If they’re like you, they’re just being deliberately stupid. If that helps. > > So, welcome to the SDMB, moron! 🙂 > > Regards, > Shodan The paranoia is truly trumpian. You want an illiberal world without contest or proofs and you choose to announce that here. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/389 "2019-08-23T19:28:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Conservatives complaining that the Dope is a liberal bubble and liberals complaining that we aren’t kicking out all the conservatives > > Must be a day that ends in y Preach! > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you making up that second part so that you can pretend that “Both Sides Do It!!!” > Must be a day you are posting here. Though it will obviously never reach the willfully delusional. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/390 "2019-08-23T19:30:39Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I keep postponing putting people on ignore, like it’s a test of my mental fortitude. I need to just try it and see what happens. Don’t ignore me! ☹ You’re my 2nd favorite snarker.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/391 "2019-08-23T19:38:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Must be a day that ends in y For a second there, I thought you’d been cut off in mid sentence when the LHM got you. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/392 "2019-08-23T21:12:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sure seems like a long time. Like visiting the dentist. Do you actually desire to participate in discussions, or is your desire simply to try to prevent others from doing so? It certainly seems the latter, as I’ve not seen you contribute anything useful to any discussion, just start sidetracks and hijacks to divert from the topic. You confidently make assertions that are completely wrong, and I don’t know for sure if you are actually stupid and deluded enough that you believe them, or that you know that you are lying as you type them out. Most of us are here to work out our own thoughts on a topic, get some feedback from others, you know, productive conversations. Why are you here? What do you get out of it? Is it just about being an annoyance to people you hate, or do you actually think that you have anything positive to contribute to this community? I like to think the latter, and I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, maybe by a few miles too much that they are actually trying to participate in good faith, but that’s running pretty thin with you. So, you don’t have to answer me honestly if you don’t want to, and I doubt that you would, but be honest with yourself for once in your life, are you a positive or a negative influence on this board? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/393 "2019-08-23T22:12:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If they’re like you, they’re just being deliberately stupid. That is a base and foul calumny. It isn’t deliberate. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/394 "2019-08-23T22:23:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You asking me to define hive mind sufficiently precisely that it can’t be picked apart by the expert pedantic folks here? I’m not crazy. You’re simply being asked to say what you mean. If you’re not willing to stand by it, just say so. We’ll consider it a victory against ignorance. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Conservatives complaining that the Dope is a liberal bubble and liberals complaining that we aren’t kicking out all the conservatives > > Must be a day that ends in y The complaints about moderation are about _inconsistency_. There are indeed regular objections about those who are not interested in engagement not being kept in line, for reasons the moderators refuse to discuss and that therefore lead to the inference that it’s an Affirmative Action program for, well, you among others, but that isn’t “all the conservatives” nor is it about conservatism. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > For instance, given the comments that you make in GD threads about your beliefs about the motives of your debate opponents, I really don’t think that you are joking here, and that you really do see liberals and progressives as fascists. How welcoming is that? GD involves the exposure of bullshit for what it is. That’s a \*good \*thing. It’s how ignorance is fought. Unfortunately, **Bone** ’s invariable response to having his \*own \*bullshit exposed is usually to simply shut up and walk away. He does complain here that “conservative” arguments are poorly stated, but he never takes the opportunity to explain how one is not bullshit after all. Instead, he walks away silently, leaving no other option than to think he knows his bullshit has been exposed and that he cannot defend it. That would be fine if he didn’t come back with the same stuff repeatedly, rather than engage and explore. Someone with some responsibility for keeping the board oriented toward ignorance-fighting \*should \*do better than that. (NB: Bullshit expressed in complete sentences and structured paragraphs is still bullshit. It isn’t about quality of expression at all.) His silence, or rather apparent petulance, inevitably invites such speculation as to his motives. His own insistence that everyone patiently explaining their own motives, if they disagree with his, is simply deluded or lying, and that they’re really all gun-grabbing fascists who want him and his friends to be killed, would be laughable if it weren’t sincere. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/395 "2019-08-23T23:57:29Z")
Will Donald Trump kill the dope? Conservatives have a tough job to overcome the mess we are in, that, if we are truthful began way before DT and is part of the republican character. DT is siphoning off conservative voters who are really more interested in fear, revenge, resentment, and the endless evil OBFUSCATION which is going to be the end of either the R party or else maybe everyone else, if they get the chance. Conservatives who think this is a steady state world where you can say the same dumb things after DT as before are going to find out something different. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/396 "2019-08-24T02:00:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re simply being asked to say what you mean. If you’re not willing to stand by it, just say so. We’ll consider it a victory against ignorance. > > The complaints about moderation are about _inconsistency_. There are indeed regular objections about those who are not interested in engagement not being kept in line, for reasons the moderators refuse to discuss and that therefore lead to the inference that it’s an Affirmative Action program for, well, you among others, but that isn’t “all the conservatives” nor is it about conservatism. > > GD involves the exposure of bullshit for what it is. That’s a \*good \*thing. It’s how ignorance is fought. > > Unfortunately, **Bone** ’s invariable response to having his \*own \*bullshit exposed is usually to simply shut up and walk away. He does complain here that “conservative” arguments are poorly stated, but he never takes the opportunity to explain how one is not bullshit after all. Instead, he walks away silently, leaving no other option than to think he knows his bullshit has been exposed and that he cannot defend it. That would be fine if he didn’t come back with the same stuff repeatedly, rather than engage and explore. Someone with some responsibility for keeping the board oriented toward ignorance-fighting \*should \*do better than that. (NB: Bullshit expressed in complete sentences and structured paragraphs is still bullshit. It isn’t about quality of expression at all.) > > His silence, or rather apparent petulance, inevitably invites such speculation as to his motives. His own insistence that everyone patiently explaining their own motives, if they disagree with his, is simply deluded or lying, and that they’re really all gun-grabbing fascists who want him and his friends to be killed, would be laughable if it weren’t sincere. When the tactic of the hive is to alternate between straight up lies when characterizing one’s position in a debate and playing stupid over the most obvious facts perhaps not everyone wants to take the time to play that game when the numbers are so disproportionate. Even something as classically liberal as being pro freedom of speech is deliberately twisted by the illiberal, regressive left as being something worthy of assault. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/397 "2019-08-24T02:19:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > When the tactic of the hive is to alternate between straight up lies when characterizing one’s position in a debate and playing stupid over the most obvious facts perhaps not everyone wants to take the time to play that game when the numbers are so disproportionate. > > Even something as classically liberal as being pro freedom of speech is deliberately twisted by the illiberal, regressive left as being something worthy of assault. Meh, what I have seen is really an attempt at ignoring the ones that are looking to commit most of the assaults, and to ignore also that they do it so as to get reactions that can be twisted in antisocial media as what you are claiming. > **[Free Speech on Campus Is Doing Just Fine, Thank You](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/free-speech-crisis-campus-isnt-real/591394/)** > > Norms about the First Amendment are evolving—but not in the way President Trump thinks. > [@](#): > > Earlier this year, President Donald Trump signed an executive order requiring colleges and universities that receive federal funds to do what they’re already required by law to do: extend free-speech protections to men and women on campus. > > The executive order was a transparent exercise in politics. Its intent was to validate the collective antipathy that many Trump boosters feel toward institutions of higher learning. Its major impact, though, has been to shed light on how serious the purported censorship crisis on campus really is—or, rather, is not. > > I have served for more than two decades as a university president, the past 17 years leading Columbia University. I am also a lifelong First Amendment scholar and have written books and essays to try to understand and explain why our laws and norms have evolved as they have. In both these capacities, I can attest that attitudes about the First Amendment are evolving—but not in the way President Trump thinks. > [@](#): > > It’s true that, in recent years, there have been more than a few sensational reports—at places such as Middlebury, William & Mary, and UC Berkeley—of misguided demands for censorship on campus, providing a ready, if false, narrative about liberal colleges and universities retreating from the open debate they claim to champion. > > Still, the surest evidence of censorship or the suppression of ideas on college campuses is the disinvitation of controversial speakers. There are more than 4,500 colleges and universities in the United States, and each year they host thousands of speakers of all political stripes. According to FIRE, a watchdog group that focuses on civil liberties in academia, only 11 speakers were disinvited from addressing college audiences in 2018. This is a minuscule fraction of the universe of speakers who express their views annually on American campuses. > [@](#): > > When students express concern and discomfort about speech that is hateful, racist, or noxious in other ways, they are doing nothing unreasonable or historically unprecedented. A number of other democracies take a less absolute view on this topic—yet remain democracies. Moreover, the prevailing American conception of free speech and press rights is a relatively recent development when located in the sweep of time and the history of our nation. The challenge of resolving the tensions inherent in a tolerant society is still very much with us and is likely to remain so. Now, that does tell me that, as usual for the right, a lot of the talking points about the “illiberal left” are a just a bunch of hooey, it is indeed not what the vast majority of liberals do about free speech on campus. Now, regarding the speech of Neo Fascists and Confederate trash; sure, they have the right to say what they want, but stupid to then pretend that others do not have then the right to tell them also that they are wrong and that they are shitheads. “By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I’m with you.” -Mike Godwin. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/398 "2019-08-24T02:32:26Z")
illiberal. That’s a new one on me. That a 4-chan talking point or something? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/399 "2019-08-24T03:46:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > When the tactic of the hive is to alternate between straight up lies when characterizing one’s position in a debate and playing stupid over the most obvious facts perhaps not everyone wants to take the time to play that game when the numbers are so disproportionate. > > Even something as classically liberal as being pro freedom of speech is deliberately twisted by the illiberal, regressive left as being something worthy of assault. I think you’ve over-indulged tonight. This makes far less sense than normal. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695/400 "2019-08-24T05:12:05Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I think you’ve over-indulged tonight. This makes far less sense than normal. It must be raining, this water is wetter than usual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-of-the-dope/838695.md?page=21)