# the death penalty **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768 "2004-05-12T12:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/41 "2004-05-13T05:59:28Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > Sorry, but an _“eye for an eye”_ would only make half of those whom commit crimes half blind, the rest of us would be just find … And to quibble, “an eye for an eye” was a liberalization of the former laws, which might take a life for an eye. This was meant to make punishment proportional to the offense. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/42 "2004-05-13T06:08:23Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Do you have a cite that says incarcerating a prisoner for life is more expensive than sentencing him/her to death? I’ve heard otherwise. No cites, because I believe that you’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/43 "2004-05-13T06:18:40Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > As best I can tell, this word “values” refers to beliefs and morals, not about views on the economy or other major political issues. I think this idea of “values” as an election issue is uniquely American and, again, a result of - and indication of - how big a role Christianity plays in America. I find it very odd that anyone would think that values are divorced from political or economic issues. In Great Britian someone doesn’t just join the Labor party randomly they join because they share similiar beliefs (ie values) about how the country should be run. My values determine my political beliefs and I believe that’s how it works in Europe. It’s the same whether you’re a christian, muslim, or an atheist. > [@](#): > > I don’t know too much about the European system, but criminal law is not necessarily about what people “deserve.” Other motives include deterrence, protection of the society, rehabilitation of the criminal and payback of a debt to society. None of these has anything to do with “values” and “justice,” at least not in the sence American conservatives use those words. That’s right, the modern justice system isn’t just about what punishment people deserve. That doesn’t mean that you can’t take into account what people deserve for commiting crimes. In fact if you don’t consider what sort of punishment is deserved then you won’t have much of a justice system. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/44 "2004-05-13T06:44:52Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > The problem I have with the death penalty as it is administered in today’s world is that I don’t think it acts as an adequate deterrent. This is because death is made too easy. Injections and pills are simply too clean and easy. Like the current war, much of the public doesn’t want to see what real death looks like and in executions, we don’t even want to see the murderer suffer undue pain. I think that if executions were gruesome, public events, with lots of blood and guts and perhaps some torture foreplay thrown in, then the death penalty would work as a deterrent a lot better than it does now. > > Go ahead, call me a Neanderthal, but I think it would work. And this “reality” show would probably get high Nielsen ratings! Now who would advertise on such a show? Hmmm. 😃 Even when I considered myself pro-death penalty, I never thought deterrence had anything to do with it. Retribution, punishment, yes, but deterrence? Do you have any evidence that there was a deterrent effect when executions were public, or when the specter of possible slow strangulation from hanging or even worse, the pain of electrocution made execution a lot more fearful than it is now? Please don’t cite lower crime statistics to back up the claim. When grotesque public executions were the norm populations were smaller, too. And “torture foreplay?” I don’t think name-calling is considered appropriate for this forum, but I’ll accept for you the proto-human name you applied to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/45 "2004-05-13T07:34:22Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > Even when I considered myself pro-death penalty, I never thought deterrence had anything to do with it. Retribution, punishment, yes, but deterrence? Do you have any evidence that there was a deterrent effect when executions were public, or when the specter of possible slow strangulation from hanging or even worse, the pain of electrocution made execution a lot more fearful than it is now? Please don’t cite lower crime statistics to back up the claim. When grotesque public executions were the norm populations were smaller, too. Well then you were missing part of the reasoning for any punishment! What do you think punishment is for? The death penalty is simply another form of punishment. Why do you smack a kid on his backside (oops, sorry not P.C. anymore, Let me rephrase) - why do you give a kid a “time-out”? To encourage or discourage him from repeating his action? Which is it? There are too many people here who ask for cites out of rote, thinking they are very smart cookies. If you take the time to put that thinking cap on, you’d realize that such a cite in this case would be impossible and therefore, you shouldn’t be asking for one. When the death penalty was used more often, it still wasn’t universal, different courts applied punishments using different standards, there was documented evidence of racial prejudice and so on. It is my belief that harsher penalties did and would have a deterrent effect. There’s only one way to determine how much of a deterrent effect there would be in today’s world - pass a universal death penalty law for a certain class of crime for say 5 years and see what happens to that rate of crime over time. Expedite the cases and limit appeals. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/46 "2004-05-13T07:41:15Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > > [@scr4](#): > > > > Do you have a cite that says incarcerating a prisoner for life is more expensive than sentencing him/her to death? I’ve heard otherwise. > > No cites, because I believe that you’re correct. I’m not sure I would agree. What costs are you considering when you talk about sentencing someone to death? The cost of the investigation? The cost of the initial trial? The cost of the excessive appeals allowed? The lawyers fees? At this [LINK](http://www.federalnewsradio.com/index.php?nid=80&sid=103531) you’ll find the following: \*\*“It costs $1 million to house a person sentenced to life in prison for 40 years” \*\* ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/47 "2004-05-13T07:49:26Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > I’m not sure I would agree. What costs are you considering when you talk about sentencing someone to death? The cost of the investigation? The cost of the initial trial? The cost of the excessive appeals allowed? The lawyers fees? > > At this [LINK](http://www.federalnewsradio.com/index.php?nid=80&sid=103531) you’ll find the following: > > \*\*“It costs $1 million to house a person sentenced to life in prison for 40 years” \*\* I have no idea. It’s just something that I’ve heard from practically every opponent of the death penalty that I have ever spoken to. It might well be false, but since the question of which is cheaper is not something that has any affect on my stance, it doesn’t really matter to me. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/48 "2004-05-13T08:29:13Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > There’s only one way to determine how much of a deterrent effect there would be in today’s world - pass a universal death penalty law for a certain class of crime for say 5 years and see what happens to that rate of crime over time. Expedite the cases and limit appeals. I have another idea. Made murder punishable by death one week, then murders committed the next week with life imprisonment, and have these weeks alternate for a few years. See if the murder rate on “Life in prison” weeks go up and “death penalty” weeks goes down. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/49 "2004-05-13T09:37:11Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > In point of fact there is surprisingly little difference between American and European population’s opinion on the death penalty. According to at least two studies (the cites, for, I’m afraid, I’ve lost. Will have to see if I can find them again) strongly stated that there is little difference of opinion. However, among the political elites, there is a much bigger gulf. European elites, even ones nominally “conservative” (which they are, in Europe) would be considered very leftist in America, even the left of ultra-liberals like Sen. Kennedy and Sen. Kerry. And on this particular issue the “Conservatives” have little interest either way, and seem to dislike the DP, regardless of the opinion of the constituency. In other words, it appears that the primary difference is more that the issue isn’t important enough to attract voters in Europe. Well it’s nice that you think that 62.18% of the Irish voters in a Referendum think the same of the “elites”. [http://www.stormcentre.net/elections/results/referendum/20010607/21/deathpenalty.html](http://www.stormcentre.net/elections/results/referendum/20010607/21/deathpenalty.html) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/50 "2004-05-13T09:38:49Z")
“as” the elites. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/51 "2004-05-13T10:22:15Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > I’m pretty sure that study said that there’s at least 50% support among polled people in Britain, and I suspect that number is not distinct from anywhere else in western Europe. But of course, the point is that it snot a very important isue to them. The death penalty has been abolished in France in 1981 (though it was applied very rarely, and only in very high profile cases. There was perhaps an execution each every other year, which, even proportionnally to the population, is way less than in the US. So it was already perceived as an exceptionnal punishment). However, polls showed for a long time that the majority of the population was still in favor of it. Only some years ago the trend was reversed for the first time and a majority mentionned being opposed to it. Actually, the younger generations are much more likely than their elders, who had been accustomed to its existence to oppose it. It has been abolished for a whole generation now, and the more time pass, the more people consider it as an archaic and unnaceptable form of “justice”. Even amongst the opponents, the tone seems to have become more passionnate. While in the past they tended not to be really shocked, one will now find many people who perceive the death penalty with roughly the same disgust they would perceive judicial torture. From more and more people, for instance, criticisms about the continuated existence of the death penalty in the USA isn’t just rhetoric. They view it as plain barbaric, and making comparison with say Saudi Arabia is a display of what they _actually_ feel. So, IMO, if nothing extraordinary happens, and the trend continue, I suspect that in one more generation, european people will mostly have the same view about death penalty that they’ve now about archaic punishments like, say, boiling criminals alive or such things. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/52 "2004-05-13T14:00:27Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > I’m not sure I would agree. What costs are you considering when you talk about sentencing someone to death? The cost of the investigation? The cost of the initial trial? The cost of the excessive appeals allowed? The lawyers fees? > > At this [LINK](http://www.federalnewsradio.com/index.php?nid=80&sid=103531) you’ll find the following: > > \*\*“It costs $1 million to house a person sentenced to life in prison for 40 years” \*\* Well, the cost of drugs for the execution is less than $100. But the cost of pursuing the death penalty is usually far more expensive than going for a life verdict, due to the nature of the case. A death penalty trial defense (two stages) done “by the book” averages $500.000. Prosecuting the case appears to cost the same or more (residents in smaller counties sometimes have to pay an extra tax to pay for such trials). Then there is appeals, and incarnation (averaging 7-8 years) until execution. So all in all, you easily exceeds $2 or even $3 million (including court costs), though total cost varies by state. A non-death penalty trial for murder costs $500.000 or less, very roughly (including court costs). Average cell cost is $20.000-$25,000 per year, so you get 40-50 years out of $1 million. However, this all gets really gloomy when you add in the fact that 65%-70% of all death verdicts are overturned on appeal, either for retrial, resentencing, or converted to life in prison (A recent study at Columbia University Law School found that about 68% of death penalty cases were overturned on appeal. When those cases were subject to a re-trial, an estimated 82% resulted in a sentence less than death). Not to mention that in most death penalty cases the jury nowadays returns a life verdict instead of death. A very very nice study (a Master’s thesis for UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Public Policy) from Los Angeles county breaks down the cost between defense, prosecutor, court and incarnation, and compare these figures to non-death penalty cases. It’s available at: > **[Home - Death Penalty Focus](https://deathpenalty.org/?pid=cost)** > > 2021 Fall Webinar Series How We Decrease Death Row & Abolish the Death Penalty – October 25th Register Now 2021 Fall Webinar Series Women on Death Row Watch On-Demand TOGETHER WE WILL END THE DEATH PENALTY. Join Us Become a Volunteer Become a... In probably the most expensive trial to date, Timothy McVeigh’s trial, the defense cost more than $15 million (ended up at $18 million I think, but no cites), while the government spent $83 million on both McVeigh and Terry Nichols (federal only, it’s also pursued in state court). [http://slate.msn.com/id/1007818/](http://slate.msn.com/id/1007818/) There are several other studies about the cost of seeking the death penalty (though none of them, as far as I know, includes the cost of cases later overturned on appeal or trials where the jury returned a verdict other than death, see above): - A New York study estimated the cost of an execution at three times that of life imprisonment - A State of Kansas study found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were found to have a median cost of $740,000. - A North Carolina study found that the death penalty costs the state $2.16 million more per execution than the a non-death penalty case with a sentence of life imprisonment (Duke University, 1993). - In Texas death penalty cases cost three times that of imprisoning someone in a single cell for 40 years. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992) [http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html](http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html) [http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7) Sorry that I don’t have to time to find some decent (newspaper) cites. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/53 "2004-05-14T04:03:42Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > America is lagging behind other developed nations socially because it has had much less time to develop socially than most developed nations. It is clear that the USA is less advanced socially than other developed nations, but I don’t believe it has anything to do with ‘time to develop’. Perhaps it is more to do with inertia resulting from the large size of the country. The death penalty is just a symptom of its slow social development. I would like to know what are the other contributing factors. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/54 "2004-05-14T08:17:20Z")
> [@Alien](#): > > Well, the cost of drugs for the execution is less than $100. > > But the cost of pursuing the death penalty is usually far more expensive than going for a life verdict, due to the nature of the case. A death penalty trial defense (two stages) done “by the book” averages $500.000. Prosecuting the case appears to cost the same or more (residents in smaller counties sometimes have to pay an extra tax to pay for such trials). Then there is appeals, and incarnation (averaging 7-8 years) until execution. So all in all, you easily exceeds $2 or even $3 million (including court costs), though total cost varies by state. > > A non-death penalty trial for murder costs $500.000 or less, very roughly (including court costs). Average cell cost is $20.000-$25,000 per year, so you get 40-50 years out of $1 million. > > However, this all gets really gloomy when you add in the fact that 65%-70% of all death verdicts are overturned on appeal, either for retrial, resentencing, or converted to life in prison (A recent study at Columbia University Law School found that about 68% of death penalty cases were overturned on appeal. When those cases were subject to a re-trial, an estimated 82% resulted in a sentence less than death). Not to mention that in most death penalty cases the jury nowadays returns a life verdict instead of death. Good post. It would be a lot cheaper if we reduced the appeals and expedited processing when the death penalty was involved. If the person was convicted of killing someone without a valid legal reason, then there shouldn’t be any need for appeals on technicalities. Cause and effect has been established. Buh buh! And no, I don’t have too much concern over being wrong now and then. When the government and military become concerned about being wrong when they drop a big bomb and civilian deaths become “collateral damage”, maybe I’ll change my view. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/55 "2004-05-14T08:22:21Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > It is clear that the USA is less advanced socially than other developed nations, but I don’t believe it has anything to do with ‘time to develop’. Perhaps it is more to do with inertia resulting from the large size of the country. > > The death penalty is just a symptom of its slow social development. I would like to know what are the other contributing factors. What do you mean excatly by “less socially advanced”? If you’re refering to things like, say, social security, what does it have to do with the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/56 "2004-05-14T08:28:27Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > Good post. It would be a lot cheaper if we reduced the appeals and expedited processing when the death penalty was involved. If the person was convicted of killing someone without a valid legal reason, then there shouldn’t be any need for appeals on technicalities. Cause and effect has been established. Buh buh! > . You’re forgetting that “technicalities” are precisely intended to make sure that cause and effect have been properly established in a fair trial. If you give up “technicalities”, you’re giving up the pretense of fair trial at the same time. And you can as well revert to lynching as a way to establish “cause and effect” and to settle the matter. The whole prosecution, trial by peers, etc…is entirely made of “technicalities”. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/57 "2004-05-14T10:27:37Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > You’re forgetting that “technicalities” are precisely intended to make sure that cause and effect have been properly established in a fair trial. If you give up “technicalities”, you’re giving up the pretense of fair trial at the same time. And you can as well revert to lynching as a way to establish “cause and effect” and to settle the matter. The whole prosecution, trial by peers, etc…is entirely made of “technicalities”. I have to disagree. Too many times, it seems, murders have gotten off the hook by virtue of some minor mistake that the police, prosecutors or lower court system made. I’m just trying to simplify the process. Did the person charged commit the act and was there a legally valid reason for doing so. No? Guilty then. Unless evidence can be presented that the person DID NOT commit the crime, then there isn’t any need for further appeals and we can proceed directly to carrying out the punishment. Of course, lawyers won’t like this since it would cut into their cash stream… ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/58 "2004-05-14T11:40:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > What do you mean excatly by “less socially advanced”? If you’re refering to things like, say, social security, what does it have to do with the death penalty? I understand by EsotericEnigmas reference things like, say, the death penalty but also including social security other modern concepts. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768/59 "2004-05-14T16:02:23Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > Good post. It would be a lot cheaper if we reduced the appeals and expedited processing when the death penalty was involved. If the person was convicted of killing someone without a valid legal reason, then there shouldn’t be any need for appeals on technicalities. Cause and effect has been established. Buh buh! > > And no, I don’t have too much concern over being wrong now and then. When the government and military become concerned about being wrong when they drop a big bomb and civilian deaths become “collateral damage”, maybe I’ll change my view. Actually not. The appeals process (the cost of all appeals, including prolonged incarnation) accounts for less than 20% of the cost of executing someone, far from making up the difference between a death penalty case and a regular murder case. And as I indicated in my previous post, when you add in cases later overturned (wasted money) then appeals accounts for very little of the total. The real reason why death penalty cases end up as costly as they do is poorly educated public defenders. Mistakes made in the original trial is what paves way for prolonged appeals and overturned sentences. Let’s not forget that death penalty trials are costly to pursue in the first place due to higher standards required. I have been following the death penalty debate for several years. If I should take a shot at it, I would say that 70%-80% are overturned because of bad representation (as in the mistake(s) should have been discovered during the original trial), with the remaining due to prosecutorial misconduct or “technicalities”. Technicalities are not as common as one might think, though it happens. I highly recommend the following two sources: A list of death penalty cases involving innocence, later overturned because of prosecutorial misbehavior or some other error at trial (includes case history):. [http://www.publicintegrity.org/pm/default.aspx?sID=sidebarsb&aID=38](http://www.publicintegrity.org/pm/default.aspx?sID=sidebarsb&aID=38) and: A database with over 300 cases of wrongfully incarcerated people, later released, many sentenced to death. List includes case summary and exonerating evidence/errors. Strangely enough, in 8 of those cases the victim was later found alive. Overview of exonerating evidence: > [@](#): > > Actual Culprit Found 170 > DNA 103 > Solid Alibi 15 > Likely Culprit Found 9 > Victim Found Alive 8 > Informant Reversal 5 > Evidence Suppressed 3 > Finger Prints 3 > Blood Type 2 > Ballistic Test 1 [http://www.dredmundhiggins.com/database.htm](http://www.dredmundhiggins.com/database.htm) [http://www.dredmundhiggins.com/listofcases.htm](http://www.dredmundhiggins.com/listofcases.htm) Currently, 1 person is released from death row for every 8 persons executed. That should be pause for thought. I don’t think we would fly if 1 out of 9 planes fell down from the sky, but each to ones needs I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-penalty/244768.md?page=2)