# The death-spike industry **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351 "2004-05-27T15:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/241 "2004-06-01T01:01:27Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > I haven’t thoroughly studied the McDonald’s menu, but that doesn’t sound like a familiar option. So you decided you’d piss everyone off first and _then_ read up on what you’re blabbering about? Or were you just going to skip step 2 altogether? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/242 "2004-06-01T01:04:43Z")
> [@JuanitaTech](#): > > The Big and, er, Big **N’** Tasty is a sandwich consiting of a hamburger patty, a slice of tomato, a lettuce leaf and, get this, onions all between a bun. It also comes with ketchup, mustard and mayonnaise. If you’re feeling a particular need to cut calories that day, I’m sure one could skip the mayo. > > What is industrial hamburger meat, by the way? Hamburger meat ground at the plant, usually containing the crud that they can’t sell otherwise, rather than ground at the butcher’s from a cut of chuck. You know, like how the rotten apples go to the applesauce plant rather than the produce stand. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/243 "2004-06-01T01:08:45Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > So you decided you’d piss everyone off first and _then_ read up on what you’re blabbering about? Or were you just going to skip step 2 altogether? I weasally calculated that post to grant myself an image of humilty that counters the air-tight arrogance I’ve been accused of showing. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/244 "2004-06-01T01:21:59Z")
Wow, ya learn something new every day. I did not know that most McDonald’s sandwiches didn’t come with lettuce and tomatoes. At every other fast food restaurant, I have to beg them _not_ to give me tomatoes, the slimy little Osama bin Ladens of the al-Qaeda salad network. So I presume **pizzabrat** ’s ire doesn’t extend to other fast food chains, like Burger King and A&W, where they do put lettuce and tomato on everything. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/245 "2004-06-01T01:43:56Z")
I arrived late in this thread and have been having fun catching up with it all, but it occurs to me to wonder, if McDonalds is not planning to sue this filmmaker, why not? They have not been averse to litigation in the past, succeeding in setting a record for the length of a trial in England. Indeed, that particular case seems not to be _quite_ over yet. [http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/press/releases/msc06052004.html](http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/press/releases/msc06052004.html) . > [@](#): > > Five years after the McLibel 2 (Helen Steel, 38 & Dave Morris, 50) last appeared in Court for their appeal, the European Court of Human Rights has declared admissible their claim that the long running McLibel trial breached their Article 6 right to a fair trial and Article 10 right to freedom of expression. The case will be heard in full at the European Court on 7th September 2004. > > The European case, known as Steel and Morris vs UK was launched on 20th September 2000, following the refusal, in April 2000, of the House of Lords to allow them leave for a full appeal to be heard there after a controversial trial and appeal resulting in a ‘mixed verdict’ in which damning rulings were made against McDonalds’ core business practices - yet the defendants were ordered to pay the company damages [See ‘Background’ below]. > … > > McLIBEL BACKGROUND - > > McDonald’s Corporation issued writs against the McLibel 2 on 20th September 1990 alleging they had been libelled in the London Greenpeace factsheet “What’s Wrong with McDonald’s?”. The McLibel trial began almost 10 years ago on 28th June 1994, and on June 19th 1997, after a trial lasting 314 days (the longest trial ever in England), Mr Justice Bell ruled that McDonald’s marketing has “pretended to a positive nutritional benefit which their food (high in fat & salt etc) did not match”; that McDonald’s “exploit children” with their advertising strategy; are “culpably responsible for animal cruelty”; and “pay low wages, helping to depress wages in the catering trade.” > > On March 31st 1999 the Court of Appeal added to those damning findings. Lord Justices Pill, May and Keane ruled that it was fair comment to say that McDonald’s employees worldwide “do badly in terms of pay and conditions”, and true that “if one eats enough McDonald’s food, one’s diet may well become high in fat etc., with the very real risk of heart disease.” However the Courts ruled that the McLibel 2 had still libelled McDonald’s over some points and outrageously ordered them to pay £40,000 damages to the $35 billion-dollar company. The McLibel 2 have refused to pay a penny. > > McDonald’s, described by commentators at the end of the McLibel trial as being responsible for ‘the worst Corporate PR disaster in history’, continues to be an ever-growing focus for controversy and opposition around the world. > **[Home - BBC News](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news)** > > Visit BBC News for up-to-the-minute news, breaking news, video, audio and feature stories. BBC News provides trusted World and UK news as well as local and regional perspectives. Also entertainment, business, science, technology and health news. > [@](#): > > … > > \*\*The burden of proof lies with the defendant > Almost uniquely in English law, in libel cases the burden of proof lies with the author / publisher and not the complainant. In other words, you have to prove that what you write is true. The person you?ve targeted does not have to prove that you’re wrong. \*\* > > McLibel > In 1990 McDonalds served a libel writ on several members of a campaigning organisation over the production and distribution of the ?What?s Wrong with McDonalds?? leaflet. The legal battle between Helen Steel and David Morris, a gardener and a postman, and the McDonalds corporation became one of the most famous cases in British legal history, not least because it became the longest running British trial. > > To win the case, the pair would have to prove from primary sources the truth of their allegations about McDonalds. After hearing all the evidence, the judge (who did find that some of the allegations were true) ruled that the pair had libelled McDonalds because the evidence they called was not enough to prove the majority of their statements. They were ordered to pay damages of £60, 000. The trial was estimated to have cost millions of pounds in legal fees. > … I have embolden a section at the beginning of the bit from the B.B.C. site merely because I wonder if that is somehow germane to the matter of sueing or not sueing: that is, I do not know whether the burden of proof might lie elsewhere in the U.S.A, me being a furrinner. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/246 "2004-06-01T01:51:13Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > I weasally calculated that post to grant myself an image of humilty that counters the air-tight arrogance I’ve been accused of showing. No, you’re just a weasel. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/247 "2004-06-01T02:04:25Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > I arrived late in this thread and have been having fun catching up with it all, but it occurs to me to wonder, if McDonalds is not planning to sue this filmmaker, why not? They have not been averse to litigation in the past, succeeding in setting a record for the length of a trial in England. Indeed, that particular case seems not to be _quite_ over yet. Well, that sort-of explains it. The only people likely to be convinced of the merit of the filmmaker’s project are people already inclined to veganism or stupidity, like pizzabrat, i.e. those already disinclined to eat at McD’s. Filing a lawsuit invites major legal bills, headaches, hassles, and free publicity to what’s-his-name. Left alone, his fifteen minutes of fame will evaporate soon enough, especially since the leftist wingnuts supporting him will presently be distracted by the upcoming American elections, or any random shiny object. Now, since it doesn’t cost _us_ anything in legal fees and whatnot to ridicule pizzabrat the dumbass, we may as well continue for our own amusement. I’ve been counting the times he’s made an absolute statement, then backpedals with claims that it was satirical or ironic. I’ll bet he gets to ten before the thread finally dies. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/248 "2004-06-01T02:09:09Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > I looked back as hard as I could, and I couldn’t find any hostility. And if my pomposity was ridiculous, why are you prentending to be offended? Don’t tell me you laughed yourself angry. Don’t presume to tell me what I am feeling. Running across a pompous jackass like yourself both offends and amuses me. The laughter is scorn. Well, for starters, from your OP: > [@pizzabrat](#): > > I don’t understand the kneejerk response whenever these firms are chastized.-snip- > Can somebody explain the jealous defensiveness people have about these companies? These aren’t necessarily so hostile, however, “kneejerk response” and “jealous defensiveness” are definitely loaded terms. Then there’s this gem: > [@pizzabrat](#): > > And by “negative feelings” I mean utter contempt towards anyone who would happily sell that stuff to anybody. Utter contempt _is_ hostility, no ifs, ands, or buts. > [@pizzabrat](#): > > My analogy was perfect. I’d like to see an attempt to break it apart. The most glaring example of your pomposity. I have a friend who used to, in all seriousness, make statements like this. I’d laugh long and hard at him for it. He stopped. > [@pizzabrat](#): > > Yes, people are now at the “This stuff’s no good, but it’s no big deal” level. I want them to be at the “The disgusting shit should have never existed in the first place! Ugh!” level. > > I’m all for permissiveness, but is this plummetting country allowed to have any values anymore? Can we set the bar anywhere without being a heretic? Again, that’s not a bid for government intervention, I’m just asking if we can ever expect again a national disgust towards anything that can turn a profit? More pomposity. See above. > [@pizzabrat](#): > > I have more contempt for those who hate McDonald’s products, yet have a fit whenever the company’s criticized. Yet another expression of hostility towards those with the temerity to disagree with you. > [@pizzabrat](#): > > No, people have been incorrectly assuming my intentions and missing my point for a long time, and you still don’t get it. “McDonald’s is trash. It’s a worthless blight on the commericial environment.” I just want to know why such a statement gets so much resistance, even from people who hate McDonald’s. Why are people afraid to criticize something that’s obviously a dentriment, just because it has found a market, for fear that they are criticizing capitalism itself? What’s with the fear of admitting you have standards, as if you’re afraid of implying you know better than someone else? Whoa! Two in one! Pomposity and hostility in one gooey blob! > [@pizzabrat](#): > > Look, I don’t even hate McDonald’s that much. I don’t really hate McDonald’s at all. I’m just upset and confused about people’s kneejerk defensiveness of a firm that “everyone knows” is bad for them. Then what’s with the attitude? You know, the pomposity and hostility. Just because you’re confused doesn’t mean you ought to lash out, and why are you upset? Maybe you ought to pick your battles a little more carefully. > [@JuanitaTech](#): > > McDonalds food is not bad for you. Eating McDonalds foods in excess over an extended period of time is bad for you. There’s a big fucking difference there, Sparky. > > I’m guessing in your circle of friends you’re not The Smart One, are you? This is a hostile response to your obtuseness. Don’t whine about being personally insulted when you appear to be ignoring other posters refutations of your premises and conclusions. That’s a Bad Thing[sup]tm[/sup] to do here. > [@pizzabrat](#): > > Uh, I’ve actually argued in favor of this plenty of times before, and still agree. I don’t know why we’ve come to accept a world where any idiot can invoke a massive death-machine that hurtles along the pedestrian plane at godless speeds, killing thousands every year. More hostility, through the use of loaded terms. Care to guess how many Dopers drive cars? > [@pizzabrat](#): > > It’s not call for a survey of opinions to remind us of the wonderful diversity of thought amongst us;\*\* it’s a chance for one entity to convince others that its right and they’re wrong, preferrably without inappropriate name-calling.\*\* –bolding mine Need I say it? It begins with a “p.” > [@pizzabrat](#): > > I didn’t abaondon it! I still think it’s perfect satire; it’s a perfect analogy in the satirical sense. Once again… > [@pizzabrat](#): > > That’s why freedom of speech is protected you know; not just so people can use a soapbox as some meaningless catharisis, but so that people can convince others to change their behavior. It’s called persuasion, and it’s not a crime. I understand this post-boomer “live and let live” atmosphere makes the slightest criticism of somebody else’s actions a federal offense, but I think that’s BS. Well, another twofer! I could go on. Other posters have pointed out how you have evaded questions. No, you don’t use direct insults in this thread, well, except for “Go to Hell.” However, you have a rather nasty habit of using rather loaded terms and wanking your ego. It’s hostile and pompous. Ya butthole! ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/249 "2004-06-01T02:13:53Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > At every other fast food restaurant, I have to beg them _not_ to give me tomatoes, the slimy little Osama bin Ladens of the al-Qaeda salad network. Now you’re being insensative to all those people who have been harmed by Osama! You just stop that! That’s terrible of you! Only with a meat diet fueled bloodlust could you think of something that awful to say! I command you to _immediately_ switch to a diet of healthy food like tofu (it’s all natural, it grows on plants that way!) and tomatoes! Tomatoes never hurt anyone! They’re a plant! In fact, the whole tomato family’s good for you! Just look at potatoes, they’re related and they’re healthy for you too! Also, I want you to stop driving a car. Someone with a meat diet driven bloodlust shouldn’t get behind the wheel of a car. Eating meat causes roadrage. Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I can’t slather on the scathing as others have done so well in this thread, but while there _is_ a case to be made against McDs in some areas, this isn’t it. McD’s could offer the healthiest food in the world in addition to their burgers, at a lower price than their burgers, and you’d _still_ have people eating nothing but burgers there. Not because they haven’t been educated on good eating, but because they simply don’t _like_ eating healthy. One of my SILs absolutely _refuses_ to eat vegetables other than potatoes. Yeah, she’s overweight, but that’s her choice. Nothing my brother could do can change that. ---
**Author:** ![drewbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drewbert/32/15890_2.png) [@drewbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewbert)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/250 "2004-06-01T02:22:51Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > You know, like how the rotten apples go to the applesauce plant rather than the produce stand. When shall we expect the Pit thread on [Mott’s](http://www.motts.com/)? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/251 "2004-06-01T02:32:57Z")
Okay, how positive of an opinion am I allowed to have of myself? Will I only be acceptable when I’m crouched in the corner all day, weeping out of sight until I starve to death? Christ, you people are sick, hateful, jackals. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/252 "2004-06-01T02:37:55Z")
pizzabrat, you either have a severe reading comprehension deficit or are insane. Also, I think you should email a moderator or administrator and request to have this thread closed. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/253 "2004-06-01T02:41:30Z")
> [@JuanitaTech](#): > > Also, I think you should email a moderator or administrator and request to have this thread closed. Or you could email a moderator or administrator and request to have this thread shoved up your ass, pizzabrat. You know, whatever works for you. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/254 "2004-06-01T02:44:46Z")
I have no problem with people having a positive opinion of themselves. When it crosses the line into pompous arrogance, _then_ I have a problem. You see, it’s been my experience that pompous, arrogant people are either fools to be verbally whacked, or dangerous megalomaniacs that need taking down. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/255 "2004-06-01T02:46:27Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > Yes! And I’ve finally defeated it! 3,698 views to 3,669 views as of this posting! Ah-hahahahaha! Brillat-Savarin wept. The number of views doesn’t “prove” anything, **pizzabrat**. You’ve been around long enough to know that. We stringently discourage posting faux controversies just for the personal kicks from the resulting brouhaha. We will _not_ take it in good part if you do it again. If this thread ever had a serious point, it’s well and truly obscured by now. I’m closing it for health reasons.\* TVeblen \*for the hamsters, specifically. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351.md?page=12)