# The death-spike industry **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351 "2004-05-27T15:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/121 "2004-05-28T11:16:24Z")
Hey, you can call me a clueless git all you want and it doesn’t make you any smarter. Everything you’ve written shows shocking poor form. For example – “No, he doesn’t want people to make their own choices. He wants people to make the same choice that he has” is a ridiculous example of rhetoric. Of _course_ he would like people to make the same choice that he has. _But that still makes it their choice_. There is nothing in what he has written that seeks to deny anyone their full range of God-given full-blooded American choices. He just – to a certain extent – wishes that they didn’t make the choices that they do. Nothing wrong with that. And as for this gem that follows it: > [@](#): > > His claim is that anybody who DARES think that junk food is ok in moderation, and therefore any company that produces it shouldn’t be driven out of business is an idiot who’s in McDonald’s back pocket. Well… I challenge you to find evidence of this “claim” anywhere in the thread! No: you’ve just provided yet more evidence of people are reading what they want to read and interpreting **pizzabrat’s** posts before they’ve even scanned them. The guy may have come up with the World’s Shittiest Analogy. He may have disgust for an institution that you, for some reason or other, have decided is the Champion of the Free Market _du jour_. But he’s never been unduly insulting, he’s never made 95% of the claims that have been attributed to him, he’s been brief and to the point throughout and he simply doesn’t deserve the disapprobation that has been heaped upon him throughout this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/122 "2004-05-28T11:36:08Z")
> [@kabbes](#): > > Well… I challenge you to find evidence of this “claim” anywhere in the thread! > [@pizzabrat](#): > > **I’ve seen plenty of knee-jerk responses** against anyone who criticizes any large corporation for anything socially irresponsible on this board. > [@pizzabrat](#): > > I’m just upset and confused about **people’s kneejerk defensiveness** of a firm that “everyone knows” is bad for them. > [@pizzabrat](#): > > Why are people afraid to criticize something that’s obviously a dentriment, just because it has found a market, **for fear that they are criticizing capitalism itself?** > [@pizzabrat](#): > > but is this plummetting country allowed to have _any_ values anymore? Can we set the bar anywhere without being a heretic? Again, that’s not a bid for government intervention, **I’m just asking if we can ever expect again a national disgust towards anything that can turn a profit?** Bolding mine. Yep, that’s saying nothing if not ‘You have the right to hold whatever opinions you want, and I’ll respect that, even if I don’t agree with it’. Well, except ‘you’re an idiot who can’t think for yourself in the face of Capitalism’. Try reading what the twit actually writes instead of championing the ‘underdog’ just because his opinion is unpopular. ---
**Author:** ![Coil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Coil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coil)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/123 "2004-05-28T11:47:40Z")
> [@MaddyStrut](#): > > I eat at McDonalds. Like **Guin** , it’s not all the time. Sometimes, it just hits the spot. For the record, I’m 5’4" and 120 lbs. I suppose I could drop a few, but I’m not anywhere near obese. Hmmm _reaches for calculator_ 5’4" and 120 lbs that’s 1.62 metres and 54 kilos. Calculating a BMI that’s 20.5 which must be considered very far from overweight. Back on topic. I agree with all the sensible posters. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/124 "2004-05-28T11:56:38Z")
> [@](#): > > But the Defendants had shown that McDonald’s “exploit children” with their advertising, falsely advertise their food as nutritious, risk the health of their long-term regular customers, are “culpably responsible” for cruelty to animals reared for their products, are “strongly antipathetic” to unions and pay their workers low wages. From the wonderful [McLibel](http://www.mcspotlight.org/case/trial/verdict/index.html) website. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/125 "2004-05-28T12:30:44Z")
**Pizzabrat** , I’m sorry you are getting jumped on so viciously. I feel the same way you do. I also wonder why so many people stick up for the fast food industry so vehemently. Unfortunately, I’m not going to do much to back you up, because I don’t want to put the time in to researching the assertions I’d like to make, and I know people will call me on them. I hope there are dopers out there who will do the footwork for me, and find the documentation of how many times a week the typical McDonald’s customer eats at McDonald’s, etc. Apparently, contrary to so many dopers’ opinions voiced in this thread, there are actually many, many Americans who don’t know that McDonald’s meals are full of fat and sugar and salt and will endanger your health if you make them a major staple of your diet. I mean really, when the commercials you’ve seen your entire life show slim, fit people glowing with health eating McDonald’s food, that message is going to carry more weight with you than the little chart posted in the corner that tells you there are lots of grams of fat in a Big Mac. I’m in favor of McDonald’s food packaging carrying great big yellow and red stickers that clearly state “This hamburger/these french fries has/have more fat than a 180-pound man should eat in 2 1/2 days. Frequent consumption of this product will lead to obesity and its related health risks.” And there should be a picture of a big fat couple to illustrate the point. After all, I have to have stupid red and yellow stickers all over the interior of my car warning me against putting a baby in a car seat in my front seat. For those who care, I do sometimes eat fast food. I’m also somewhat fat. I’m just throwing that in so I don’t get accused of being a rail-thin health food nut. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/126 "2004-05-28T12:34:40Z")
Kabbes, Pizzabrat’s question has been answered over and over. But he just can’t cope with the fact that people have a rational answer that he disagrees with, so he keeps ignoring their answers and continuing to ask the question again. Is it any wonder people are getting antsy with him? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/127 "2004-05-28T13:04:25Z")
I think everyone should step back a minute. Even if **pizzabrat** is wrong in his premise calling names is just demeaning to the namer more than the named. This is called ‘being an adult’. Now I posted a while back that I didn’t think he was entirely off the mark. There are a couple of issues here. A) It’s clearly established in the American legal system that firms can be sued for the detrimental effects of their products…even if those products are completely legal. Therefore the idea of suing a fast food company for the health effects of eating their products shouldn’t be considered outside the norm. B) There is an issue of externalization of costs. Sure, McDonalds has the right to sell whatever greasy and salty food they want because that’s what people want to eat. Simple enough. But when people eat there too often (and we all know they do) certain health problems develop and a certain percentage of those with these problems (do the poor disproportionately eat fast food? I don’t know but I wouldn’t be surprised) will place the burden of those health problems (medical costs and lost work time, etc) on those not directly connected to either the buyer or the fast food corporation (taxpayers and employers). So like I said…there’s an argument to be made here. Maybe not with ‘death spike’ sofas (though there are some people I’d like to sell those to) but the argument **is** there to be made. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/128 "2004-05-28T13:54:58Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Yep, that’s saying nothing if not ‘You have the right to hold whatever opinions you want, and I’ll respect that, even if I don’t agree with it’. > > Well, except ‘you’re an idiot who can’t think for yourself in the face of Capitalism’. > > Try reading what the twit actually writes instead of championing the ‘underdog’ just because his opinion is unpopular. Well, **Tengu** , I simply disagree with you that the statements you have bolded show **pizzabrat** claiming that “anybody who DARES think that junk food is ok in moderation, and therefore any company that produces it shouldn’t be driven out of business is an idiot who’s in McDonald’s back pocket.” (Which, incidentally is completely different to the opposite of “You have the right to hold whatever opinions you want, and I’ll respect that, even if I don’t agree with it.”) I have no interest in dragging this down to a semantics-chopping contest but accusations of kneejerk defensiveness (of which there _has_ been a lot in this thread) and wondering why a criticism of McDonalds seems to be interpreted as a criticism of capitalism (which, again, it has been repeatedly in this thread) is not the same as saying that anybody “who DARES think that junk food is ok in moderation, and therefore any company that produces it shouldn’t be driven out of business is an idiot who’s in McDonald’s back pocket.” They’re as different from eachother as sofa-spikes and junk food. pan ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/129 "2004-05-28T13:58:42Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Kabbes, Pizzabrat’s question has been answered over and over. But he just can’t cope with the fact that people have a rational answer that he disagrees with, so he keeps ignoring their answers and continuing to ask the question again. Is it any wonder people are getting antsy with him? I disagree. **Pizzabrat’s** first reply to this thread was a one-liner in post 15. By that stage people were already being sarcastic, accusing him of not being able to think and generally implying that he was an idiot merely for suggesting that > [@](#): > > Yes, I’m talking about the needless junkfood industry, and any other industry that knowingly sells destructive products to the public. I don’t understand the kneejerk response whenever these firms are chastized. Outside of the screening of Super Size Me I attended, there were actually people protesting the film in defense of McDonald’s. The flim is a documentary in which the filmmaker creates an experiment where he eats nothing but McDonald’s for a month. McDonald’s supposedly sells “food” in the form of “meals”, and so, he ate three entire McDonald’s “meals” a day. Of course, by the end of the month, that “food” made twenty pounds heavier, nearly killed his liver, made him less sexually potent, depressed him, and gave him other health problems. Now why would anyone defend McDonald’s in this case? At least tobacco and alcohol companies market their products as recreational, but McDonald’s supposedly sells food; what we all need to survive. > Why should people only be resonsible for what they buy, and not what they sell? I hope nobody would defend a person who sells crack to children, so why defend Frito-Lay for selling the addictive poison they sell to kids? Can somebody explain the jealous defensiveness people have about these companies? Ridiculous analogy aside, it was a reasonable question. The responses from the word go were anything but. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/130 "2004-05-28T14:02:25Z")
> [@bluethree](#): > > **Pizzabrat** , I’m sorry you are getting jumped on so viciously. I feel the same way you do. I also wonder why so many people stick up for the fast food industry so vehemently. When they came for McDonald’s, I didn’t speak for I don’t eat Big Macs. When they came for Pizza Hut, I didn’t speak because pizza is bad for you. … When all that was left was tofu, I fucking starved to death because I don’t like tofu. They have a product. They found a market. They aim their advertising at kids. They have to provide accurate information when asked. What’s the friggin’ problem? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/131 "2004-05-28T14:14:58Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > They have a product. They found a market. They aim their advertising at kids. They have to provide accurate information when asked. > > What’s the friggin’ problem? Well, “They aim their advertising at kids” would be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/132 "2004-05-28T14:15:43Z")
I have to say I have a goo on me now for a Big Mac. I’ll be stopping in on the way to the pub. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/133 "2004-05-28T14:15:47Z")
> [@kabbes](#): > > Ridiculous analogy aside, it was a reasonable question. The responses from the word go were anything but. I beg to differ. In my second reply to the OP I stated the following: > [@me](#): > > I defend Frito-Lay because they’re just offering a product that, when eaten moderation, has little to no negative impact on your health. Feel free to replace Frito Lay with McDonalds. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/134 "2004-05-28T14:57:15Z")
> [@kabbes](#): > > Well, “They aim their advertising at kids” would be a good start. Well, good Lord, shoot 'em all then. Lots of companies aim a portion of their advertising at kids. And if one of those kid’s parents are just turning him/her loose with money and not monitoring the kid’s behavior, it’s the parent that should be chastised. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/135 "2004-05-28T15:09:43Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Well, good Lord, shoot 'em all then. Lots of companies aim a portion of their advertising at kids. And if one of those kid’s parents are just turning him/her loose with money and not monitoring the kid’s behavior, it’s the parent that should be chastised. Actually, [it is obviously not as clear-cut as you think](http://www.ppu.org.uk/chidren/advertising_toys_eu.html) From the cited site: > [@](#): > > In the UK, restrictions exist on ads that ‘might result in harm to children physically, mentally or morally’ and on ads employing methods that ‘take advantage of the natural credulity and sense of loyalty of children’. Nor may advertisements ‘exhort children to purchase or to ask their parents or others to make enquiries or purchases’. There are rules on food advertising, health, hygiene, safety and decency and there are restrictions on transmission time We have these rules for a reason. That reason being, we see it as morally highly dubious to be broadcasting messages directly to those without the critical faculties to challenge those messages. McDonalds is unhealthy. I’ll give you – just – that adults should realise this and behave accordingly. But to attempt to brainwash children into the subconcious belief that McDonalds Is Good is just unconscionable. pan ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/136 "2004-05-28T15:36:15Z")
Yee-gads, thanks **kabbes** , I knew I couldn’t be completely insane. And about my first paragraph, it was _satire_, you know, like other implausible ideas with a point. Were the British _really_ eating Irish babies in Johnathan Swifts time? Are we really dealing with an overflow of immigrants from the future? Would anyone really air an election ad where singers patriotically sing "Only a moron wouldn’t cast his vote for [said candidate]. And if I can say so myself, it was excellent satire. Come, on! Death-spike chairs? If it were on South Park, people would love it! > [@Zakalwe](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by kabbes > > Well, “They aim their advertising at kids” would be a good start. > > Well, good Lord, shoot 'em all then. Love them or shoot them all? Those are the two choices? _Now_ who’s world is black or white? > [@Princhester](#): > > Kabbes, Pizzabrat’s question has been answered over and over. But he just can’t cope with the fact that people have a rational answer that he disagrees with, so he keeps ignoring their answers and continuing to ask the question again. Is it any wonder people are getting antsy with him? Answered how? People are quick to defend McDonald’s because other people like it? The fact that people like something is good enough for it to exist without criticism? And of course I can’t cope with an answer I disagree with; that’s what discussion is all about. It’s not call for a survey of opinions to remind us of the wonderful diversity of thought amongst us; it’s a chance for one entity to convince others that its right and they’re wrong, preferrably without inappropriate name-calling. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/137 "2004-05-28T15:37:47Z")
> [@kabbes](#): > > That reason being, we see it as morally highly dubious to be broadcasting messages directly to those without the critical faculties to challenge those messages. Fine, _but_ the assumption in the OP is that there are plently of _adults_ who lack these critical faculties, and this lack of critical faculties even extends to the adults posting on this very thread, when we indirectly defend McDonald’s by attacking the dubious arguments. Pizzabrat’s brand of politics has a huge element of condescension, suggesting that people need to be protected from themselves, even protected from things that are only bad if taken to ridiculous extremes. Is it truly shocking that he gets responses of the “screw you” variety? Given the context, though, perhaps “spike you” would be more fitting. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/138 "2004-05-28T15:52:16Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Fine, _but_ the assumption in the OP is that there are plently of _adults_ who lack these critical faculties, and this lack of critical faculties even extends to the adults posting on this very thread, when we indirectly defend McDonald’s by attacking the dubious arguments. Where in the OP is that assumption, actually? This thread all about is that I can’t even say that McDonald’s is the wrong choice without everybody, McDonald’s customers or not, taking offense of behalf of those who think McDonald’s is the right choice. Is it because I’m implying that I think I’m making a better choice in this regaurd than other people? So? Why should anyone be afraid of admitting they think their choices are superior to other people’s choices? Doesn’t making a choice in the first place imply that? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/139 "2004-05-28T16:15:26Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > Where in the OP is that assumption, actually? This thread all about is that I can’t even say that McDonald’s is the wrong choice without everybody, McDonald’s customers or not, taking offense of behalf of those who think McDonald’s is the right choice. See, there you go _again_. Whether or not McDonald’s is the right choice, it’s their choice to make, and you’re assuming they make that choice out of pure stupidity and/or brainwashing. That people _have_ choices is far more important to me than the continued existence of McDonalds, and anyone who suggests the choices should be curtailed because of an evil analogy _that makes no sense whatsoever_ then, yes, I’ll take offense. Or I’ll call you an idiot. Or both. > [@](#): > > Is it because I’m implying that I think I’m making a better choice in this regaurd than other people? So? No, your diet is completely irrelevant. The fact that you implicity want others to be pressured into choosing your diet is the crux of the matter. > [@](#): > > Why should anyone be afraid of admitting they think their choices are superior to other people’s choices? Doesn’t making a choice in the first place imply that? Hey, you’re absolutely free to make any choice you like, and to discuss those choices at length. However, if you state or imply that your choice A is better than other people’s choice B becuase B is comparable to getting a spike driven up your ass, then you can expect to be challenged from people who think the spike connection is complete bullshit. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351/140 "2004-05-28T16:35:51Z")
That’s what I thought. I have an opinion that I want other people to share, and that makes me an idiot. Who exactly has the right to try to influence other people’s decisions through discussion if apparently I don’t? The SATIRICAL SITUATION outlined in my first paragraph was obviously not meant to be taken at such face value, so I don’t know why you’re acting like it’s the crux of my argument. I didn’t say anything about stupidity or brainwashing either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spike-industry/247351.md?page=8)