# The Death Spiral of a TV show (doin' it, engagement, marriage, baby) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted\ **Created:** [April 17, 2022, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951 "2022-04-17T16:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/21 "2023-03-19T20:11:43Z")
Sex AFTER “I love you”?? What Christian News Network show is this?? ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/22 "2023-03-19T20:34:32Z")
> [@K364](#): > > So, when there’s attraction and sexual tension between the male/female protagonists what usually happens is that eventually the following will occur: Some shows try to keep the sexual tension going indefinitely because finally getting together is the death knell of the sexual tension. They prolonged that on Moonlighting for an absurd amount of seasons before they finally hooked up in the final season, maybe the very final episode, I don’t quite recall. Friends seemed to come up with a solution for what to do about sexual tension between two leads who will clearly get together at some point. Ross and Rachel hooked up relatively quickly, after a couple seasons, then broke up and the sex tension turned into ex tension for many seasons after that, until inevitably getting together again at the end. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2023, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/23 "2023-03-19T22:36:26Z")
Ted McGinley redeemed his reputation as show- killer when he joined the cast of _Married With Children_. It went another 7 seasons with him. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/24 "2023-03-19T22:46:09Z")
_Andy Griffith_ too. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2023, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/25 "2023-03-19T23:18:16Z")
_Barney Miller_ was a great show. I honestly don’t remember what the last year was like. I know I didn’t like the bad plot about Harris’ book but that may just may be me. Half the year one cast was gone by then, which forced change. Five years is probably the optimal length for a series. It’s the next five years that are problematic. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2023, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/26 "2023-03-19T23:19:05Z")
Barney Miller finished strong with very little or no loss of quality. It is a true rarity. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2023, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/27 "2023-03-19T23:53:35Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Five years is probably the optimal length for a series. It’s the next five years that are problematic. I don’t think there is such a thing as “the optimal length for a series.” Any number you give is going to have plenty of counterexamples, probably in both directions. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/28 "2023-03-20T01:48:47Z")
Cool. I get to disagree with someone. Best part of my day. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/29 "2023-03-20T05:05:29Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@What\_Exit](#): > > > > Barney Miller had an 8 year run without Jumping the Shark and ended well. > > If I understand correctly, _Barney Miller_ was originally intended to focus much more on Barney’s home life and relationship with his wife than the way the show turned out. Maybe that makes it the opposite of what this thread’s title mentions. That happened during the first season, and by the second season Elizabeth was an other-end-of-a-telephone-call character. Even when she and Barney separated and then they got back together, Liz did not appear (except twice in season 2, once in season 4 and once in season 5). I’ve been watching reruns in recent months on one of those nostalgia channels, and it does hold up right until the end. But I think the last few seasons suffered from a smaller cast – only three detectives, plus Barney, and then Levitt, who was so annoying. I think the show lost a step after Jack Soo left (and died). But it didn’t succumb to any of the usual sitcom development problems because there was never any romantic interest to speak of. Only Barney was married (after Fish retired), and Wojo seemed to have tamed his libido quite a bit in the later years, without meeting and settling down with anyone. So a pure workplace comedy with a huge predominance of only one gender in the cast could be the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/30 "2023-03-20T12:15:27Z")
Hate to rain on your parade but someone agrees with you. For the most part, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy: most shows target a 5 year plot-line hoping to make it to syndication. If it’s a hit, the studio will either derail the original plotline (My Name Is Earl) or you get the sitcom version of 2nd-album syndrome, where the show flounders because they’ve already said what they wanted to. The other part is often the actors/characters “age out.” Twenty-something behavior by people in their mid-30s is less funny, which is how Joey and Phoebe went from carefree to clownish. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/31 "2023-03-20T13:43:28Z")
I thought Mad Men was an interesting variant on this. Don Draper was done by the end of season 4 but it soldiered on for the sake of the secondary characters . ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/32 "2023-03-20T13:57:10Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I think it’s related to breaking the cardinal rule for sitcoms. That everything has to be the same at the end of the episode as it was at the start. This is the point I was going to make. It’s not an issue that characters getting married and having children will kill a show. There are popular sitcoms where the characters are single, popular sitcoms where the characters are childless couples; popular sitcoms where the characters are families with children, and popular sitcoms where the characters are divorced or widowed. Audiences seem fine with any variation on the characters’ marital status. What audiences don’t like is change. They want to be able to tune in to any random episode and have the characters be the same as they were in every other episode. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/33 "2023-03-20T20:03:46Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > So a pure workplace comedy with a huge predominance of only one gender in the cast could be the ticket. The absolute inability to write for a female detective was always the glaring weak point of the show, which otherwise was a favorite. The attempts to shoehorn one in are an embarrassing reminder of how difficult it must have been for real-life women to enter police work (or any other type of male-dominated work). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/34 "2023-03-20T20:07:46Z")
Actually, they had one working with Wentworth. But Linda Lavin got the offer to Star in **Alice** and smartly took it. None of the other attempts worked out. In fact, she was one of the only short run Detectives to be shown in the Finale. Her name never left the chalkboard. She was going to be a regular apparently when she got the better offer. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/35 "2023-03-20T20:09:29Z")
My memory tells me otherwise. We may simply disagree about her success. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/36 "2023-03-20T20:11:28Z")
Fair enough, I thought she was an excellent addition and the writers handled the real world issues involved fairly well. Right down to accidental sexism by Capt Miller of all characters. From memory, first episode she appears in, she complains the Captain isn’t sending her out on calls (she’s right) and the captain replies with something like “We all think your a lovely cop”, he emotes a realization that he’s being an ass and insulting. He even mocks himself a little at the end of the episode when he repeats the line after she hauls in an armed robber. Apologies, in the last 10 years I have rewatched this entire series 3 times. I consider the Hash Brownies episode one of TV’s best ever. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/37 "2023-03-20T20:16:36Z")
Another thing about the “will they won’t they” arc is that in many people’s minds, that narrative whether it leads to “yes they do” or to “nope, never gonna happen”, once the question gets a final answer, _that_ is **it**. _Someone_ is riding into the sunset. Keeping it going upends the expectation. “They lived happily ever after”, full stop, end of story, go to sleep, ANOTHER story tomorrow. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The attempts to shoehorn one in are an embarrassing reminder of how difficult it must have been for real-life women to enter police work Which does not surprise me for the late 70s/early 80s. And I too find Wentworth was the best shot they took. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/38 "2023-03-20T20:22:09Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > My memory tells me otherwise. We may simply disagree about her success. I feel your memory is good. Lavin only appeared in five episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/39 "2023-03-20T20:41:40Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > So a pure workplace comedy with a huge predominance of only one gender in the cast could be the ticket. To be fair, they tried showing Wojo’s home life in the fifth season like they did with Barney during the first season. Apparently it was supposed to be a backdoor pilot that didn’t go anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2023, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951/40 "2023-03-21T02:58:33Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > they tried showing Wojo’s home life in the fifth season That was cringe-making to me. I never wanted to think about Wojo’s personal life, even after it stopped being so, well, lustful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-death-spiral-of-a-tv-show-doin-it-engagement-marriage-baby/962951.md?page=3)