# The Decline of the American Fraternal Organizations **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652 "2010-01-12T13:10:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/1 "2010-01-12T13:10:02Z")
This thread… > **[Ancient Order Knights of the Mystic Chain](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=547024)** > > http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/aokmc.htm A fraternal organization active primarily in Pennsylvania between 1850-ish and about 1930. Ever heard of it? Do you know of any family members who were in it? Going through my... …got me thinking. Here was an organization with thousands of members, meeting halls, awards & etc, & it has vanished so thoroughly that even we are hard-pressed to scrape up a single fact about it. And it existed, & throve, less that 100 years ago. Fraternal organizations are dying. Masons, Moose, Elks, Odd Fellows…there are a tiny scrap of what was once a vast social network. There were many others. From my youth, I remember a few old men who belonged to a Scandanavian Fraternal order, dedicated to Saint Olaf. And any careful inspection of the Lost New York site will uncover photos of lodge halls, whose founding organizations are utterly lost to living memory. Millions belonged to these groups. They were effective charitable fundraisers. They provided structure, ritual, & companionship. Booze & food were served (if the Moose Halls are anything to go by). **Why did these groups die? What happened to the American Fraternal Orders?** ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/2 "2010-01-12T13:29:49Z")
Ah, so that’s how they did it before facebook… ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/3 "2010-01-12T13:35:23Z")
See the book [Bowling Alone](http://www.bowlingalone.com/) (2000) by Robert D. Putnam for one opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/4 "2010-01-12T13:52:48Z")
I would like to carefully exempt my own order, the Knights of Columbus, from the charge of dying. The K of C is growing, with a current all-time high membership of over 1.8 million men. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/5 "2010-01-12T13:55:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I would like to carefully exempt my own order, the Knights of Columbus, from the charge of dying. The K of C is growing, with a current all-time high membership of over 1.8 million men. It helps a lot when you have a bar on site. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/6 "2010-01-12T14:34:35Z")
The rise of the youth culture of the 60’s may not have helped them much. It’s a little hard to bring in new blood when the kids are chanting, “Dont trust anyone over 30!” Organizations full of older white men sound like just the bourgeois ideal that the hippies (real and pop imitations thereof) rejected. They’re also a pretty good symbol of The Man. But I wonder at what age men generally join such orders? If folks don’t become shriners until they’re established, the youth opinion may not matter as much. OTOH, aging boomers may not want to join BECAUSE it’s a sign of aging, like getting AARP membership. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/7 "2010-01-12T14:38:29Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > See the book [Bowling Alone](http://www.bowlingalone.com/) (2000) by Robert D. Putnam for one opinion. Beat me to it. Any discussion involving American social organizations and their involvement is woefully inadequate if Putnam’s work isn’t at the heart of it. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/8 "2010-01-12T14:40:09Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > It helps a lot when you have a bar on site. Eh, most of them did, actually. The Knights are closely related to the Catholic church. In my diocese, they work hand in glove. That sort of relationship provides a growth and outreach opportunity that the Masons and other groups don’t have. They’re notorious for standing alone. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/9 "2010-01-12T14:47:59Z")
My father met a guy who became Catholic just so he could join the K of C. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/10 "2010-01-12T14:54:25Z")
I won’t deny that in most areas these organizations are in decline, but oddly enough they seem healthy in my neck of the woods. Within a few miles of my house are booming Moose and Elks lodges, the KofC is very active locally and one of the largest VFW chapters in the state is located here. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/11 "2010-01-12T15:01:44Z")
The only thing I know about these things are that they used to be the sponsors in my town’s little league. We didn’t have the Little Yankees or the Junior Red Sox. I played for the Jaycees, against the KC’s, Rotary and the Eagles. But you have to take pity on these poor saps. Where else can you find a fifty year old man riding a mini-bike with a fez on? When BPOE goes tits up … small town parades across the nation are going to be just a bit more boring. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/12 "2010-01-12T15:05:34Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > But you have to take pity on these poor saps. Where else can you find a fifty year old man riding a mini-bike with a fez on? When BPOE goes tits up … small town parades across the nation are going to be just a bit more boring. When all we are left with is the Red Hat Society, we’ll have to just call the parades off. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/13 "2010-01-12T15:15:48Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > It helps a lot when you have a bar on site. Interesting comment, and I think it tells a story – not the one you probably intended, though. When I was a kid of about ten, I remember being with my dad, driving along a local thoroughfare and passing a K of C council home. “What are ‘Knights of Columbus?’” I asked. “Oh,” my dad replied, “They’re a drinking club.” My ten-year-old brain immediately conjured up a detailed vision of a chairman, members, and orderly procedure all for the purpose of drinking. It was years later, when I joined the Knights, that I realized there was a subtle truth in some respects to what my dad said, but those days were numbered when he made his observation, and in sharp decline by the time I joined. In earlier times, no doubt the K of C, with their stand-alone council homes that did include bars, were (along with their charitable works, fraternal benefits, and other good deeds) also largely a place for men to get together and hoist a brew. But when a young man named Virgil Dechant took over the chief executive officer position for the Knights in 1977, he began to radically change the direction of the Knights. He believed that stand-alone council homes that drew members from multiple parishes were a poor model, because the members’ primary attention went to raising funds to keep and maintain their own real estate. Dechant began pushing for smaller councils to form within a single parish, and either use parish facilities or acquire their own buildings on or near parish property. He believed that councils thus formed would (correctly) see their primary mission as support of the parish and its activities. Of course, many older councils remain, continuing the use of the older model. But the trend of the Order has been away from the “drinking club” atmosphere and towards a true Catholic, family, fraternal, service organization. I know your comment was not intended to get as much of a detailed response as this is… but I am convinced that this change in emphasis is one reason the K of C continues to grow and prosper even as other fraternal organizations fight declining enrollment. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/14 "2010-01-12T15:21:03Z")
Yes, I know the K of C now has many councils that meet at churches and don’t have a bar. My father was a grand knight 30 years ago and is still an active member , he is 4th degree. His place has a bar but the other local councils do not. In the early days of SNL they had a skit about the K of C and at the end they always said “The bar is open!” ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/15 "2010-01-12T15:35:39Z")
What do these groups do? I’ve heard of them but never really understood them. From the OP I see mentioned charity fundraising. That sounds like a good thing but there are a ton of fundraising groups now. He mentions ritual and structure. I’m not really sure what is meant by that. And then companionship. There are a bazillion ways to find that now. It sounds like they are largely shrinking because there is a lot more competition for peoples time and a lot of ways to get what they offer. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/16 "2010-01-12T15:48:09Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > What do these groups do? Since ancient times, they split the rocks of ignorance that obscures the light of knowledge and truth Now let’s all get drunk and play Ping-Pong!!! ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/17 "2010-01-12T15:52:43Z")
Part of me wishes these clubs would come back into fashion. Many fond childhood memories of family at the VFW, the Moose, etc. Facebook is nice and all, but it’s not the same, not even close. Outside of some lucky small towns, America doesn’t do community anymore, and that’s a shame. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/18 "2010-01-12T15:56:42Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > What do these groups do? I’ve heard of them but never really understood them. From the OP I see mentioned charity fundraising. That sounds like a good thing but there are a ton of fundraising groups now. He mentions ritual and structure. I’m not really sure what is meant by that. And then companionship. There are a bazillion ways to find that now. > > It sounds like they are largely shrinking because there is a lot more competition for peoples time and a lot of ways to get what they offer. The K of C has a pretty detailed five-point service structure. Councils are encouraged to institute programs to benefit the church, local community, the family, the council itself, and youth. So in the youth area, my local council does things like hosts a free-throw competition, with winners at our level moving up to compete and a district, regional, and state final. We do a pizza party for the altar servers, and sponsor the local Boy Scout troop. We annualy recognize an “Outstanding Young Man,” and “Outstanding Young Woman,” in the area and award a small scholarship as a prize. In the community area, we provide labor and funding to assist local shelters and soup kitchens. We procure and deliver food for needy families for Christmas and Thanksgiving dinners. And so forth… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/19 "2010-01-12T16:01:15Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Yes, I know the K of C now has many councils that meet at churches and don’t have a bar. My father was a grand knight 30 years ago and is still an active member , he is 4th degree. His place has a bar but the other local councils do not. Yes, thirty years the trend I spoke of was just starting, but even then, I’d be willing to wager your dad has a story or two about some tension between the ideals of serving the community or church, and the need to keep up the local building; or about the distinction between the Grand Knight and the club president and the challenges in that relationship and their distinct goals. - Bricker, PGK, PFN, FDD ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/20 "2010-01-12T16:26:35Z")
Baby Boomers en masse kind of rejected tradition for some reason. In my experience in Masonry there was a bit of a generation gap between the oldsters and my generation. My parents’ generation is less represented amongst Masons. The rate of decline is declining, but it’s still in decline. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652.md?page=2)