# The Decline of the American Fraternal Organizations **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652 "2010-01-12T13:10:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/21 "2010-01-12T16:27:39Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > Eh, most of them did, actually. > > The Knights are closely related to the Catholic church. In my diocese, they work hand in glove. That sort of relationship provides a growth and outreach opportunity that the Masons and other groups don’t have. They’re notorious for standing alone. Except Catholic church attendance overall is declining. IIRC. And they are having more trouble getting priests. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/22 "2010-01-12T16:39:12Z")
Let me tell you a couple stories - just as an example. When we needed a Christmas tree this year, we went to the VFW - we have been buying trees from them for several years now. The tree was top quality and very inexpensive. A couple weeks after this the post had their Christmas party for the kids - my three kids had an afternoon of crafts, time with Santa and a good lunch. They were sent home with a couple of Beanie babies and a gift bag with candy and a $10 Wal-Mart gift card. Total cost for mom and dad - zero. I can go there on Friday nights for a full dinner, on weekends for breakfast. For a sandwich and beer or cocktails it can’t be beat. Members get charged, for instance, 75 cents for a domestic draft during happy hour - this goes up to a buck later. The post is constantly raising money for the benefit of veterans and servicemembers, and this amounts to a lot of money annually. I will admit that the post does not get much of my time - I have a young family. But I am glad to support them in what they do and equally glad to enjoy the benefits they provide. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/23 "2010-01-12T16:41:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, thirty years the trend I spoke of was just starting, but even then, I’d be willing to wager your dad has a story or two about some tension between the ideals of serving the community or church, and the need to keep up the local building; or about the distinction between the Grand Knight and the club president and the challenges in that relationship and their distinct goals. > > - Bricker, PGK, PFN, FDD My dad and his friends really like that they are independent of a church. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/24 "2010-01-12T17:04:17Z")
The first job my mother had after she had me was a waitress at the Elks where my dad was a member. This was back in the Bush I years when women were excluded from membership and even my 6 year brain though that was wrong. I used to hang out there and drink pop and eat popcorn while my mom worked and my dad socialized and they saved money on a babysitter. Fun times. The Elks club in my tiny home town (different from the town I was a tot in) does very well and has recruitment well about the state and national average, mainly because its a bar and a one of the few places to socialize around there. Some of my high school classmates who never left town are members so it’s nice to run into them when I visit my mother, who is a member. The Elks were forced by law to admit women in the 90s, and my mom tells me a lot of the old timers do not like it, but without women paying dues, most lodges wouldn’t have enough money to stay open. I could see why people would be less interested in the Elks if they lived in a larger city, though. ---
**Author:** ![gang\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f07891/32.png) [@gang\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gang_green)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/25 "2010-01-12T17:09:47Z")
I know some of it had to do with lawsuits some years back about sexual discrimination. These are fraternal orders - no women allowed. This caused some women to sue for discrimination. In many cases, the fraternal order had a women’s branch - the Masons had Eastern Star, the Rotary Club had the Pilot Club, the Elks had the Does - but the “men only” thing really had some people riled. Anyway, some of them have integrated. My dad has been in Kiwanis for decades, and my mom joined when they opened up to women. But overall, yes, the clubs are in decline. It seems that fewer and fewer people are interested in joining these types of organizations. Oh, and as for the VFW in particular, they came under fire for not recognizing the veterans of Vietnam. It’s taking them a long time to overcome that stigma, and I understand that many veterans still won’t join because of it. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/26 "2010-01-12T17:10:18Z")
IMHO 1. Changes in blue laws - the bars were an attraction on Sundays 2. Mobility - we now drive for entertainment and to entertainment leaving most “local” things struggling to survive 3. Loss of ethnic identity 4. Loss of community and stewardship - most has a charity as a central theme. Now the government meets most of those charitable needs. Or at least we like to think it does. 5. Decline of organized religions. If you don’t have people in the pews, you aren’t going to have many in your Sokol Hall. 6. Sexism and racism isn’t as tolerated and fraternals were by their very nature at least one of the two. 7. Cost. Those “castles” and “Aeries” were expensive to build, heat and maintain. Those are off the top of my head and from some I remember closing. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/27 "2010-01-12T17:15:53Z")
Nothing personal, but here’s hoping that the VFW someday ceases to exist because nobody qualifies for membership. Around here, membership seems to be growing a bit lately, as more and more younger people discover that Lions, Elks, etc. make very good networking sites for business. I know that when my students speak before the Lions, there have been a greater percentage of non-ancients in the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/28 "2010-01-12T17:17:41Z")
Why did VFW not recognize Vietnam vets? I had not heard that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/29 "2010-01-12T17:29:03Z")
> [@gang\_green](#): > > Oh, and as for the VFW in particular, they came under fire for not recognizing the veterans of Vietnam. It’s taking them a long time to overcome that stigma, and I understand that many veterans still won’t join because of it. Actually, the VFW has always recognized Vietnam veterans as an organization - this recognition, though, didn’t always percolate down to individual posts or members who often made Vietnam vets feel unwelcome. Those days seem to be long gone, though - Vietnam vets dominate leadership positions in my post and the national commander is a Vietnam vet. And the same mistake doesn’t seem to be made today - I have never felt unwelcome at the post even though my wartime experience is very limited - I was in a support role for the Bosnia operation and have several months of imminent danger pay for operations in South America. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/30 "2010-01-12T17:30:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In earlier times, no doubt the K of C, with their stand-alone council homes that did include bars, were (along with their charitable works, fraternal benefits, and other good deeds) also largely a place for men to get together and hoist a brew. But when a young man named Virgil Dechant took over the chief executive officer position for the Knights in 1977, he began to radically change the direction of the Knights. He believed that stand-alone council homes that drew members from multiple parishes were a poor model, because the members’ primary attention went to raising funds to keep and maintain their own real estate. Dechant began pushing for smaller councils to form within a single parish, and either use parish facilities or acquire their own buildings on or near parish property. He believed that councils thus formed would (correctly) see their primary mission as support of the parish and its activities. > > Of course, many older councils remain, continuing the use of the older model. But the trend of the Order has been away from the “drinking club” atmosphere and towards a true Catholic, family, fraternal, service organization. > > I know your comment was not intended to get as much of a detailed response as this is… but I am convinced that this change in emphasis is one reason the K of C continues to grow and prosper even as other fraternal organizations fight declining enrollment. I think this bit of history supports, rather than contradicts, the OP’s thesis. You’re saying the K of C turned its decline around _by changing into something very different_ than the traditional fraternal organization. As an organization that sees “their primary mission as support of the parish and its activities,” it would appear to be a closer fit with groups such at the PTA, the Friends of the Library, and other organizations that exist to provide outside support to community institutions that are directly run by professionals of one sort or another, but can greatly benefit from the help of interested community members. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/31 "2010-01-12T17:34:28Z")
Two things: 1. The decline in society’s segregation by sex. The fraternal organizations were an artifact of a time when men and women lived, worked, and socialized in much more separate worlds. Yes, a man occasionally had to go to parties as a couple, but he couldn’t _relax_ around women, because they were just so different. In today’s world, with women established in the workplace and men expected to participate in keeping the home and raising the children, the opposite sex is no longer so alien, and it’s not necessary to flee from them to have a good time. 2. ESPN. Fundamentally, the fraternal organizations gave men something to do with their time. Now, there is a ton of sports accessible at any time, either at home or in a sports bar. The idea of sitting through a men’s meeting led by a guy in a water buffalo hat suffers by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/32 "2010-01-12T17:38:51Z")
Not only ESPN but all the other sports channels too. My dad’s K of C always gets together to watch college FB. And of course Notre Dame is the team they watch the most. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/33 "2010-01-12T17:41:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Except Catholic church attendance overall is declining. IIRC. And they are having more trouble getting priests. Well, yes. [According to this story about a Gallup poll](http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/04/09/Poll-Protestant-church-attendance-rising/UPI-15611239291794/), Roman Catholic Church attendance has fallen since 1955, but Protestant church attendance is rising. Still, the falling Catholic numbers have generally been higher than the rising Protestant numbers until now: > [@](#): > > Church attendance among Protestants in the United States has been increasing for six decades, reaching 45 percent this decade, poll results indicate. > > The Gallup Poll said Thursday its surveys of an unspecified number of people between 2005 and 2008 found that 45 percent of U.S. Protestants attend church, tying the Christian movement with Roman Catholics > . > > Results of the 2005-2008 surveys indicate that 45 percent of Roman Catholics nationwide are regular churchgoers, a significant decline from 1955. > > In 1955, Gallup results indicated 75 percent of U.S. Roman Catholics attended church regularly. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/34 "2010-01-12T17:45:11Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Baby Boomers en masse kind of rejected tradition for some reason. In my experience in Masonry there was a bit of a generation gap between the oldsters and my generation. My parents’ generation is less represented amongst Masons. The rate of decline is declining, but it’s still in decline. The men-only thing that **gang green** mentions probably had something to do with it: in my g-g-generation, the guys and girls wanted to hang out with each other rather than separately. And by the time the time the fraternal organizations admitted women, the damage had been done. But mostly, I think it was about the suburbs. Back when the fraternal organizations were important, the suburbs barely existed. All those lodges were where their members were, in small towns, in larger towns, in cities. Then after the war, the suburbs came along, and the lodges were fairly slow in following. AFAICT, for those of us who grew up in suburbia in the 1950s and 60s (i.e. most of us baby boomers!), the fraternal orders simply were somewhere else, off our cultural map. And they didn’t seem to be on our fathers’ maps either - they may have been a part of the life of the small-town professional, but the guy commuting in to his job in the city, then driving back out to his suburban split-level in the evening, didn’t really interact with the lodges. Go a few years down the road, and the geographical division becomes a cultural division, and there you go. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/35 "2010-01-12T18:14:29Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Nothing personal, but here’s hoping that the VFW someday ceases to exist because nobody qualifies for membership. > > Around here, membership seems to be growing a bit lately, as more and more younger people discover that Lions, Elks, etc. make very good networking sites for business. I know that when my students speak before the Lions, there have been a greater percentage of non-ancients in the last few years. I came in to say this. Many of my business-minded college classmates ended up joining these organizations as a way of making contacts, and the parents of one or two actually pay for their memberships so their kids can get jobs. ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/36 "2010-01-12T20:07:25Z")
My WAG is that a lot of it has to do with changes in the role of men in modern family. Those that I know who are members of this sort of club are looking for an escape from their women, and home responsibilities, or simply don’t have them yet (still single). My grandfather, and one uncle are great examples of this, along with a few of my friends. The good family men that I know tend to want to go home and interact with their families, rather than heading over to “The club,” and putting down a few pints. My father, and most uncles would represent this crew. Now, this is only my observation, from my relatively small circle of friends and family, but it seems that it holds fairly true. Also, I do recognize the good works that a great many of these clubs do, and respect that effort. I also recognize that there are a great number of members who the above analysis does not apply to in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Baracus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@Baracus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baracus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/37 "2010-01-12T21:05:57Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > In today’s world, with women established in the workplace and men expected to participate in keeping the home and raising the children, the opposite sex is no longer so alien, and it’s not necessary to flee from them to have a good time. This is what I was thinking especially the raising the children part. With a wife that works and a kid, I don’t really have a ton of free time to go hang out at the lodge, at least not on a weekly basis. It seems like it would be more the norm fifty years ago than today for dad to come home pat the kids on the head, eat the dinner that his wife had waiting for him, and then do whatever the heck he wanted the rest of the evening. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/38 "2010-01-12T21:12:38Z")
College frats were down in the 60s and 70s but 1 thing helped them rebound - Animal House which came out in 78. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/39 "2010-01-12T21:37:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I would like to carefully exempt my own order, the Knights of Columbus, from the charge of dying. The K of C is growing, with a current all-time high membership of over 1.8 million men. Things may vary by region. Here in Austin, all the Knights I know are elderly men, as are all the Kiwanis. They TRY hard to recruit younger people, but haven’t had much success. Sadly, at 48, I’d be one of the “younger” people, if I had any interest in joining. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/40 "2010-01-12T21:44:28Z")
One other note on the Knights of Columbus: back in the early/mid-Sixties, I had some rich cousins who moved from New Jersey to Tennessee. They became VERY active members of the local Knghts of Columbus, for a reason that probably wouldn’t exist today: they were Catholic, and Catholics weren’t welcome at a lot of leading Southern country clubs in those days. I’m pretty sure a similarly affluent Catholic family moving to that same area today WOULD get into the local country club without a problem, which would mean one less family joining the K of C. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652.md?page=3)