# The Decline of the American Fraternal Organizations **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652 "2010-01-12T13:10:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/41 "2010-01-12T22:33:18Z")
I’ve been going to dinners at the Freemasons lodge here (and also handed in my petition to join yesterday) and I have seen other guys my age (mid-20s.) Not that many, but this is a small lodge, and they always have news clippings with photos posted on the walls and stuff that seem to show lots of younger guys involved with the Masons. The majority of them are definitely older, like 50+, but there are 4 or 5 guys there in their 30s. I actually read an article in the newsletter of the George Washington Masonic Memorial that credited movies like _National Treasure_ with raising interest among young people about the Masons. Normally that would make me :rolleyes: but I guess anything helps, and people do (unfortunately) get all of their knowledge of history from the movies. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/42 "2010-01-12T22:57:01Z")
> [@gang\_green](#): > > Oh, and as for the VFW in particular, they came under fire for not recognizing the veterans of Vietnam. It’s taking them a long time to overcome that stigma, and I understand that many veterans still won’t join because of it. _King of the Hill_ [had an episode](http://sharetv.org/shows/king_of_the_hill/episodes/260599/06x11) about Cotton Hill’s VFW post running out of funds and being forced to reach out to Vietnam vets after rejecting them for several decades. All I know about the VFW, I learned from that cartoon. > [@silenus](#): > > Nothing personal, but here’s hoping that the VFW someday ceases to exist because nobody qualifies for membership. In 2000, I remember seeing a segment on the _Nightly News with Tom Brokaw_ which was about the decline of veteran’s organizations due to their not being any major wars for a generation. This was presented as an overall _good thing,_ even if it meant the VFW disappeared. Of course, this would no longer be a concern a year later. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/43 "2010-01-12T23:21:53Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Around here, membership seems to be growing a bit lately, as more and more younger people discover that Lions, Elks, etc. make very good networking sites for business. I know that when my students speak before the Lions, there have been a greater percentage of non-ancients in the last few years. Some of the old lodges probably benefited from the social pressure that used to prevent men in the “gentlemen’s” professions (doctors and lawyers) from advertising. The modern changes in attitude that allow law firms and clinics to advertise on local television stations may reduce the need for personal networking. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/44 "2010-01-12T23:48:54Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I actually read an article in the newsletter of the George Washington Masonic Memorial that credited movies like _National Treasure_ with raising interest among young people about the Masons. Normally that would make me :rolleyes: but I guess anything helps, and people do (unfortunately) get all of their knowledge of history from the movies. It’s not a fraternal organization, but my Scottish group saw the same thing after Braveheart and Rob Roy came out. And age does seem to be a factor; after something like those movies, we’ll get a spike in younger members, but they don’t stay active very long. It’s a “gray” group - at 41, I often feel like a 12-year-old peeking at the adult table. It sounds tacky to say, but we’re just kind of waiting for the Old Guard to die off, since right now they hold all the power and while they enjoy complaining about membership dropping off, they’re not interested in changing things to appeal to a younger crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/45 "2010-01-14T04:37:54Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Actually, the VFW has always recognized Vietnam veterans as an organization - this recognition, though, didn’t always percolate down to individual posts or members who often made Vietnam vets feel unwelcome. Those days seem to be long gone, though - Vietnam vets dominate leadership positions in my post and the national commander is a Vietnam vet. My uncle, a WWII vet, was very active in the local VFW club. He mentioned that there was a tremendous generational difference between the older, white, conservative WWII ‘regulars’ and the new, younger Vietnam vets. They were trying to get some of those young guys to join, but there were constant, irritating differences between the groups. Like the music played on jukebox – each group disliked the music the others played. (One of the first times they brought some young guys in, they complained about the lack of choices on the jukebox – “do you have any songs on this thing from after Kennedy was killed?” – and actually, they didn’t have many. That required changing the song mix, and of course, some of the songs they removed were somebodys favorites.) There were even differences in the drinks the groups liked. And the WWII guys were upset that the Vietnam guys asked about a non-smoking section – to object to smoke seemed unmanly to them. Plus there were big differences in their feelings about their wars. The WWII guys were proud of their service, absolutely convinced that WWII was justified, and (despite a lot of bitching) generally thought the higher-ups knew what they were doing. The Vietnam guys were far more questioning on these points. Many of the Vietnam guys came back almost anti-war, the WWII guys were strongly in favor of it. There was a memorable dispute one time when a WWII guy made a pro-war comment, and a Vietnam guy said that was easy to say when it wasn’t your ass at risk in some damn jungle. There was quite a clash of cultures, and anything the leaders did to accommodate one group tended to alienate some of the others. It took quite awhile, a fair amount of adjustment, and starting to bring some of the younger guys onto the board before they got along. Now, most of the WWII guys are long gone, and even the Vietnam guys are getting older, and facing new, younger vets coming along. But they seem to be having an easier time welcoming the newer guys (and gals), possibly remembering when they were the new ones. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/46 "2010-01-14T05:04:33Z")
I have often thought that these sorts of lodges could be successfully resurrected in an ironic hipster form. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/47 "2010-01-14T13:48:01Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > This thread… > [Ancient Order Knights of the Mystic Chain - Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=547024) > …got me thinking. Here was an organization with thousands of members, meeting halls, awards & etc, & it has vanished so thoroughly that even we are hard-pressed to scrape up a single fact about it. And it existed, & throve, less that 100 years ago. > > Fraternal organizations are dying. Masons, Moose, Elks, Odd Fellows…there are a tiny scrap of what was once a vast social network. There were many others. From my youth, I remember a few old men who belonged to a Scandanavian Fraternal order, dedicated to Saint Olaf. And any careful inspection of the Lost New York site will uncover photos of lodge halls, whose founding organizations are utterly lost to living memory. > > Millions belonged to these groups. They were effective charitable fundraisers. They provided structure, ritual, & companionship. Booze & food were served (if the Moose Halls are anything to go by). > > **Why did these groups die? What happened to the American Fraternal Orders?** I blame the Red Cross. 🙂 Seriously, one of the major functions of these organizations is to provide help to members in need. Think of it as an early form of insurance. With the rise of commercial insurance for people of modest means, government social programs, big charities, and last but not least the tremendous expansion of evening activities, there simply isn’t the need for this type of organization. I am a member of Rotary. It has been pointed out that there hasn’t been a large volunteer organization formed (in the US) like the Rotary since the early 1900s. It is simply life moving on. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/48 "2010-01-14T14:42:52Z")
Television. We used to have an active Lodge hereabouts, but when English-language television came in, the membership dwindled and aged. What do the Masons do? We preserve our ancient ceremonies and teachings. It is way cool to recite the words once recited by George Washington. Anything that pissed off Hitler. Stalin, Mao and Franco is OK by me. ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/49 "2010-01-14T17:44:22Z")
Others brushed against another reason that these organizations are losing their influence but I haven’t seen it stated bluntly. Membership in many of these institutions was required to get a job in many towns up to about 1970. The country was much more parochial then. We didn’t have the “move away once you get out of school” culture we have now. If you wanted to get along in the community you found yourself in you did your best to fit in. You joined the club where the mayor and the factory owner and the head of the chamber of commerce were all officers. If you were unlucky enough to be a protestant in a catholic town, or even an Italian in a Norwegian town then you worked as a laborer or a shop hand or something because the front office was closed to you. Those jobs went to the guys who could join the club where the power brokers were. These institutions were the basis for the “old boys network” you have heard so much about. As we have become a more mobile society and talent has become more important than who you know, at least in finding a first job out of school, these organizations have lost their power. You no longer to HAVE to join to get ahead and they never really had much else to offer their members. ---
**Author:** ![davey77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@davey77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davey77)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/50 "2010-01-15T00:47:58Z")
My grandfather was an Oddfellow (_and also a member of a fraternal organization.)_ Can anybody tell me anything about this organization? I see the remains of IOOF halls around SE Ohio and I wonder what was going on in there. Thought they were working class employees of the Masons, but don’t know much more. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/51 "2010-01-15T11:54:10Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > _King of the Hill_ In 2000, I remember seeing a segment on the _Nightly News with Tom Brokaw_ which was about the decline of veteran’s organizations due to their not being any major wars for a generation. This was presented as an overall _good thing,_ even if it meant the VFW disappeared. Of course, this would no longer be a concern a year later. The VFW and American Legion, among others, are actively working with veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as lobbying before Congress on their behalf. They do serve a function above and beyond socializing opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/52 "2010-01-15T13:22:53Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > Membership in many of these institutions was required to get a job in many towns up to about 1970. The country was much more parochial then. We didn’t have the “move away once you get out of school” culture we have now. If you wanted to get along in the community you found yourself in you did your best to fit in. You joined the club where the mayor and the factory owner and the head of the chamber of commerce were all officers. This was true of the little shit towns I grew up in in the 70’s. The little shit prison town I graduated high school from in 1979 grew about 5x time population and now has an Intel fab. Probably more college grads (including post grad) than there were actual population back when I lived there. I think the internet and all it’s trappings helped kill off these orgs. The youngest Nam vets are what 55 now? The youngest WW2 vets are 80+ like my father. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/53 "2010-01-15T13:44:28Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > One other note on the Knights of Columbus: back in the early/mid-Sixties, I had some rich cousins who moved from New Jersey to Tennessee. They became VERY active members of the local Knghts of Columbus, for a reason that probably wouldn’t exist today: they were Catholic, and Catholics weren’t welcome at a lot of leading Southern country clubs in those days. My first year as Grand Knight happened to coincide with the fifteenth anniversary of my council’s founding. So I pulled together a black-tie dinner event and invited all the PGK’s to attend, including our founding (“Charter”) GK, who had since moved out of the area. He gave a short speech about the early years, and told his own story of why he joined the Knights. Paraphrased: As a young man, I worked in a small town in Pennsylvania. The local K of C hall had dances twice a month, but you couldn’t bring a date unless you were a member. So I joined for one simple reason: I wanted dates! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/54 "2010-01-17T00:34:16Z")
I was watching an old film of the waltham, MA Christmas Parade (from 1955), and there were tons of these organizations represented: The “Improved” Order of Red Men, the Order of St. Olav, Masons, Odd Fellows, Foresters, etc. None of these organizations are around here any more 9Masons excepted). My guess is that people have more things to do today-and lodge meetings cannot compete with golf, skiing, or major league sports anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/55 "2010-01-17T00:57:38Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > The VFW and American Legion, among others, are actively working with veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as lobbying before Congress on their behalf. They do serve a function above and beyond socializing opportunities. When my unit deployed the state chapter of the VFW paid for all of our life memberships. All 3,000 of us. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/56 "2010-01-17T01:39:51Z")
A lot of them just don’t have the same use. For instance, the Elk and Moose used to provide homes for their aged members. Insurance, burial plots, widow assistance and similar things were provided through the Lions and Rotary clubs. Now people get those from other sources. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/57 "2010-02-03T23:25:16Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > **Why did these groups die? What happened to the American Fraternal Orders?** [Holy Grail]I’m not dead yet![/Holy Grail] A lot of the fraternal organizations were viewed as “old men’s clubs.” When I get my Elks magazine, it’s filled with ads for old-people products. But the organizations are far from dead. In fact, we’re in the midst of a membership drive at our Elks club that has increased its membership by around 30%. What I like about the Elks is the focus on serving the community. It’s great to save the world, but there are times when I just want to help my neighbor. Even in our little town of 2,300 people, we have a thriving Elks lodge that gives out scholarships, buys emergency room equipment for rural hospitals, runs an active drug awareness/education program, puts on dinners for veterans, serves as a meeting area and support group for other nonprofits, and more. And yes, it’s a private club. It has a bar. Part of the reason we’re pulling in a lot of 30-somethings in this membership drive is that we\* can all feel like it’s our own club. We throw parties, volunteer to help tend bar, and generally get involved. It’s the only bar in town with couches and comfy chairs. Poker night at the Elks feels like poker night at home with your buddies–not a high-stress game at a casino. - I use the word “we” to refer to the membership at large. I am (alas) no longer a 30-something. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/58 "2010-02-04T00:10:10Z")
The Generational Cycle of American History. Civic generations of Americans such as the Republican Generation of the Revolution and the GI Generation of World War II are generally team-oriented and like social meetings of all sorts including fraternal organizations. Now the idealist generation of the Boomers are dominant who are far more individualistic and thus tend to avoid social organizations such as the fraternal organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/59 "2010-02-04T00:31:15Z")
From the other side of the fence, the Daughters of the American Revolution had a decline in the late 90’s early 2000’s and seem to be rebounding with a membership of 167,000 (living), I know membership in Colorado is expanding. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652/60 "2010-02-04T02:29:28Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > I have often thought that these sorts of lodges could be successfully resurrected in an ironic hipster form. Definitely. Especially if you get silly uniforms and make lots of Stonecutters references. Very Rushmore. I think the people who touched on gender nailed it. Who’s got time for this sort of club if you’re actually co-parenting rather than coming home to a hot meal, clean house and kids who are seen and not heard? Who could get away with it? And I agree that the next generation can actually do a lot of this stuff (drinking, charity work) with people they actually like and have things in common with, beyond their skin color, religious affiliation and the contents of their pants. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-the-american-fraternal-organizations/524652.md?page=4)