# The Decline of Western Civilization – When did It Start? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 13, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589 "2003-06-13T15:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/41 "2003-06-16T07:15:37Z")
> [@](#): > > we eat, we shit, we fuck, we die Hopefully not at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/42 "2003-06-16T11:20:57Z")
Yeah, except that **Marley23** can spell Gan **dh** i right. Where is the evidence that Oswald Spengler was a “proto-Nazi”? Did he have any connection with Nazism, or was his writing used to support Nazism? ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/43 "2003-06-16T16:18:37Z")
It started 06-13-2003 10:25 AM. Well done **godzillatemple**! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/44 "2003-06-16T16:49:38Z")
Let’s take a local and specific case in point, one near to me. At Berkeley in the '60s, students fought long and hard for the right of free speech–something established in the Bill of Rights and taken for granted outside of the university environment. All the students wanted was the right to distribute literature that was contrary to the point of view of the university administration–something so simple and basic now, that it’s hard to believe it was so controversial 40 years ago. I think we can all agree that this was a major step forward. Fast forward 40 years, at the same location: at the annual Big Game (football game between Berkeley and Stanford) a very popular t-shirt worn by the students says, simply, “Fuck Stanford”. In a public place, with hundreds of young children present. Does the freedom to wear an obscenity make our society better? Does achieving the freedoms in the first example inevitably lead to the second? On the other hand…(arguing against my own premise)…perhaps we’re moving toward a day when the f-word is so common that it’s no longer obscene–when there are no dirty words. Maybe that’s a good thing, I dunno (shrug). But we’re not there yet, and we’re at the stage when things can be commonplace yet still be offensive to many. And that’s what leads to debates like this. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/45 "2003-06-16T20:03:52Z")
**Another date** nomination: January 20, 1981. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/46 "2003-06-17T04:53:02Z")
Again, I contend that the f-word is only considered obscenity because it is symbolic of one aspect of our animal nature. Some people are even afraid to say the word “sex” in public; some are even afraid to say “make love.” The number of euphemisms we have for intercourse and excretory activities astounds me, and yet it is obscene to use a _particular_ phrase for it? We even have euphemisms for the _place_ where excretion takes place in Western society! Considering that it’s something everybody does multiple times per day, why is so obscene to discuss bathroom activities in the Western world? I’m not sure that a perception of the collapse of Western Civilization should hinge on calling something what it is, or acknowledging something about ourselves that we can’t change. But this is more a debate, I think, on _why_ such things are considered obscene. FISH ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/47 "2003-06-17T13:38:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*Isn’t it great how people always romanticize the past? I especially love those movies like Baggar Vance, A River Runs Trhough it or Legend of the Falls that depicts people in the 1920s-30s as so polite in their three-piece suits. Somehow scenes of people dieing of polio, families starving during the Great Depression or the local lads dragging a negro around town by his hair never make it to the final cut. > \*\* Of course the “nostalgic” movies are just like the contemporary ones in that respect. Audiences, by and large, don’t want to see movies about ordinary folks who live in exurban houses and commute 90 minutes each way to work, or inner city residents ekeing out a tough existence. They’d rather see prosperous and happy people living in beautiful homes, either in the best part of a city, or on a vast piece of land that the family owns. So that’s the way movies get made. Come to think of it, though, _A River Runs Through It_ did attempt to deal with mistreatment of Native Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/48 "2003-06-17T13:40:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spectre of Pithecanthropus \* > \*\*Of course the “nostalgic” movies are just like the contemporary ones in that respect. Audiences, by and large, don’t want to see movies about ordinary folks who live in exurban houses and commute 90 minutes each way to work, or inner city residents ekeing out a tough existence. They’d rather see prosperous and happy people living in beautiful homes, either in the best part of a city, or on a vast piece of land that the family owns. So that’s the way movies get made. > > Come to think of it, though, _A River Runs Through It_ did attempt to deal with mistreatment of Native Americans. \*\* Well let me rephrase that. People don’t necessarily want movie characters to be unrelentingly happy, but they don’t want any drama or unhappiness caused by financial stress. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/49 "2003-06-17T16:16:36Z")
Most western countries have de-colonized in the last 50 years, and domestically made a transition to liberal welfare states. Great advances in communications, medicine, transportation, engineering, genetics, etc. have been invented. More info has been discovered in the last 50 years than in all of human history up until 50 years ago. A few minor slights like finding out how petty people are when they watch reality TV isn’t so bad, and a small price to pay. ---
**Author:** ![FranticMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c68b51/32.png) [@FranticMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FranticMad)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/50 "2003-06-17T17:07:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Calculus of Logic \* > \*\*More info has been discovered in the last 50 years than in all of human history up until 50 years ago. \*\* But are people happier, more fulfilled, helpful? Millions of Americans are suffering from untreated depression. ([cite 1](http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-06/hms-moa061203.php), [cite 2](http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/23/3095)). That’s a pretty big price to pay. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/51 "2003-06-17T18:18:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FranticMad \* > \*\*But are people happier, more fulfilled, helpful? Millions of Americans are suffering from untreated depression. That’s a pretty big price to pay. \*\* And everybody was happy in the 1930’s? The people suffering today from depression (small “d”) never suffered from The Depression (capital D). Read Steinbeck-the Grapes of Wrath. When your belly hurts from hunger, when you are weak and light-headed due to a lifetime of malnutrion–you don’t complain about “feeling depressed”. Nowadays,people don’t have problems satisfying physical needs,so they complain about psychological needs. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/52 "2003-06-19T05:35:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FranticMad \* > \*\*But are people happier, more fulfilled, helpful? Millions of Americans are suffering from untreated depression. ([cite 1](http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-06/hms-moa061203.php), [cite 2](http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/23/3095)). That’s a pretty big price to pay. \*\* I think people are happier, and i doubt they were happy 50 years ago as much as their unhappiness was ignored. Freud: The end of a successful analysis enables the patient to convert neurotic suffering into an acceptance of everyday common misery. Thoreau: The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation Its not like depression was invented 30 years ago (although treatments for it were. prozac is barely 15 years old), people were still depressed they probably just kept it to themselves out of stigma. The fact that millions suffer from depression is a medical issue now is a major thing to me, it wouldn’t have been 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/53 "2003-06-19T14:18:57Z")
Calc: Agree. Even now there is a stigma attached to depression, etc. On these very boards there are sometimes people who espouse the “Just get over it” point of view. Fifty years ago it was simply not spoken of. Countless people simply suffered in silence, or took to alcohol or other substances for what they thought would be relief. The “good old days” is a myth based on wishful thinking and selective amnesia. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/54 "2003-06-20T04:31:39Z")
I am amazed that nobody has cited any sources concerning the decline of our culture (western). The following is a quote from the best selling book **Future Shock** by _ **Alvin Toffler 1970** _ > [@](#): > > Future shock is a time phenomenon, a product of the greatly accelerated rate of change in society. It arises from the superimposition of a new culture on an old one. It is culture shock in one’s own society. But its impact is far worse. For most Peace corps men, in fact most travelers, have the comforting knowledge that the cuture they left behind will be there to return to. The victim of future shock does not. > > Take an individual out of his own culture and set him down suddenly in an environment sharply different from his own, with a different set of cues to react to-different conceptions of time, space, work, love, religion, sex and everything else-then cut him off from any hope of retreat to a more familiar social landscape, and the dislocation he suffers is doubly severe. Moveover, if this new culture is itself in constant turmoil, and if-worse yet-its values are constantly changing, the sense of disorientation will be still further intensified. Given few clues as to what kind of behavior is rational under the radically new circumstances, the victim may well become a hazard to himself and others. > > Now imagine not merely an individual but an entire society, an entire generation-including its weakest, least intelligent, and more irrational members-suddenly transpoted into this new world. The result is mass disorientation, future shock on a grand scale. > > This is the prospect that man now faces. Change is avalanching upon our heads and most people are grotesquesly uprepared to cope with it. The book was about these changes and how to adapt to them. In his book he mentions an occurence which will do as well as any other to mark the end of “western civilization”. > [@](#): > > Within a single lifetime, agriculture, the original basis of civilization, has lost its dominance in nation after nation. Today in a dozen major countries agriculture employs fewer than 15 percent of the economically active population. In the Untied States, whose famers feed 200.000.000 Americans plus the equivalent of another 160,000,000 people around the world, this figure is already below 6 percent and it is still shrinking rapidly. Remember, Dr. Toffler, wrote these words over thirty years ago. I have a couple of other writers to quote, but I’d like to hear what you think of “furture shock” and if there are some other cites besides mine. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/55 "2003-06-20T11:36:01Z")
Heh. Anybody see Garfield today? [![](http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ga/2003/ga030620.gif) ](http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ga/2003/ga030620.gif) 😃 Barry ---
**Author:** ![refusal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@refusal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/refusal)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/56 "2003-06-20T15:43:27Z")
The recent apparent rise in mental illness (assuming such an increase exists) might be contrasted with the huge falls in cholera, typhoid, TB, measles, polio, influenza, and sundry other major diseases. Human beings have little experience in living in affluence, and some teething problems are inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/57 "2003-06-20T16:41:01Z")
As far as I can tell, civilization has been in decline ever since it began. At least this is what the “experts” of every era like to claim. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589/58 "2003-06-20T19:58:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by refusal \* > \*\*The recent apparent rise in mental illness (assuming such an increase exists) might be contrasted with the huge falls in cholera, typhoid, TB, measles, polio, influenza, and sundry other major diseases. Human beings have little experience in living in affluence, and some teething problems are inevitable. \*\* So, you are discounting West Nile Virus, AIDS, SARS, Lime Disease, ebola and sundry other new major diseases? Those should keep us teething for awhile, until some others crop up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-decline-of-western-civilization-when-did-it-start/181589.md?page=2)