# The deepest sympathys to all you Irish out there. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 18, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083 "2009-11-18T22:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![TheBoltEater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheBoltEater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheBoltEater)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/81 "2009-11-20T06:19:06Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > What if the ball potentially crosses into the goal, but no goal is awarded? Play continues until such time as their is either a foul or the ball goes out of play. That may be seconds, or it may be a matter of minutes. Do you then go back and review the video replay and award the goal, put time back on the clock, etc.? What if the nightmare occurs: ball potentially across line, no whistle, defenders clear and start a counter-attack which ends up being successful within less than thirty seconds, scoring a goal? Can you imagine the ruckus if they go back, award the original goal, and take everthing that happened after back off the board??? > ::snip:: > … imagine this: in the playoffs, with a chance to go to the Stanley Cup finals on the line… :mad: You seem to think that the very idea of using video replay in that fashion is unthinkable, and then you go on to talk about the NHL. Allow me to point out, then, that your unthinkable scenario is, in fact, exactly the way that video replay IS used in hockey. > [@](#): > > Rule 39 - Video Goal Judge > > 39.2 Goals > > “When the Video Goal Judge observes an incident involving a potential goal that was undetected by the on-ice officials he will contact the Referee at the first stoppage of play and inform him that a review of the play is in progress.” > > ::snip:: > > “In the event that a video replay shows a goal was scored prior to the play being stopped, the Video Goal Judge will inform the Game Timekeeper and Official Scorer of the time of goal and the amount of playing time left to be reset on the game clock.” > [@](#): > > Rule 78 - Goals > > 78.5 Disallowed Goals > > “(vii) When video review confirms the scoring of a goal at one end of the ice, any goal scored at the other end on the same play must be disallowed.” ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/82 "2009-11-20T08:42:31Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Well, my almost as long watching football has allowed me to come to a contrary opinion. When combined with the fact that no one castigates them as commits such fouls in any serious way, I’ll have to take my opinion as supported by the evidence, absent something a bit more weighty than your opinion. :rolleyes: Just out of interest, how long have you lived in the US, a country not known for either the high quality of its football or particularly large amounts of coverage of the sport? Does anyone in this thread agree with DSYoungEsq in that professional fouls are seen as not cheating and most fans don’t even consider them bad? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/83 "2009-11-20T08:57:44Z")
I have to ask all those so up in arms about this incident - did you feel the same passion about Henry’s diving efforts in the 2006 World Cup? The guy is a long established cheat. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/84 "2009-11-20T09:30:34Z")
According to BBC Ceefax, FIFA have rejected Irelands request for a replay. The only honourable thing is for France to now offer a replay, which they won’t ---
**Author:** ![Hrududu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Hrududu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrududu)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/85 "2009-11-20T09:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Does anyone in this thread agree with DSYoungEsq in that professional fouls are seen as not cheating and most fans don’t even consider them bad? No, and to be honest I don’t know anyone who does. This type of thing is ruining the game. It happens all the time. This isn’t the first time Henry has done something like this. Like someone else said he’s dived before earning penalties etc. Someone earlier said that these things are to be expected, everyone does it and the officials are to blame. Its that sort of attitude that has players thinking they can do anything as long as they don’t get caught. Certainly over here the player takes the brunt of the blame. Every paper this morning and yesterday has Henry plastered all over the front pages. His reputation is taking a serious hit over this. > [@](#): > > According to BBC Ceefax, FIFA have rejected Irelands request for a replay. FIFA got exactly what they wanted. This was obvious when they decided at the last minutes to seed the playoffs. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/86 "2009-11-20T10:20:37Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > I have to ask all those so up in arms about this incident - did you feel the same passion about Henry’s diving efforts in the 2006 World Cup? > > The guy is a long established cheat. Yes. Diving pisses me off. In fact it probably pisses me off more than deliberate handballs but what has made this one so controversial is the direct connection between the handball and Ireland going out. As I think I said earlier in the thread, Anelka should have been booked for his clear dive to try and get a penalty earlier in the game. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/87 "2009-11-20T10:22:10Z")
> [@Hrududu](#): > > No, and to be honest I don’t know anyone who does. I’m glad that it’s not just me then. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/88 "2009-11-20T12:31:32Z")
WHEN did I say anything about DIVING??? 😕 A professional foul is not diving. :rolleyes: Try again, folks… ---
**Author:** ![Hrududu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Hrududu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrududu)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/89 "2009-11-20T12:59:09Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > WHEN did I say anything about DIVING??? 😕 > A professional foul is not diving. :rolleyes: > Try again, folks… You do realise that other people are posting in this thread? Someone else brought up the diving. ---
**Author:** ![footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9f8e36/32.png) [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/footballisplayedwithyourfeet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/90 "2009-11-20T13:27:51Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > It was, however, exceptionally blatant. I could see it from the stands. Everyone saw it. The linesman had to have seen it. Every Irish player saw it. The French fans saw it. It was an unbelievable miss. This is not true from what I have heard from it, yesterday Dara O’Brain said on the BBC that very few Irish fans had seen the handball in the stadium (and they also didn’t show the replay on the screens) and were extra distrought when they saw/were told what really happened. Anyhow, there were two people (ref and linesman) standing outside a penalty area full of moving players. It is always possible that at the second the handball was made, both of them had hampered views. It is not that the ref saw the incident and thought ist was ball to hand or anything, he just didn’t see it and appearantly was crying in his dressingroom after seeing what really happened. This could have happened to anyone. This is why I think no amout of stick is too much to throw at Henry, he knew what happened, he knew the ref had missed it and he chose to keep it that way (by running away celebrating as if nothing had happened). People say anyone would have done the same, but I’m quite sure this is not the case. This season alone I’ve seen at least three incidents in which a ref mad a decision (also on handball) just to have the player that got the free kick make clear there was no foul…the ref changed the decision and they were on their mary way again. Henry chose for this option and I hope people won’t forget. As you can see from the above, I’m quite pissed off. I’ve been trying to understand why this pisses me off so much, and why I regard it as so much worse than a professional foul or any other foul. Come to think of it this pisses me off worse than some of the career threathening fouls we have seen this season. The only thing I can think of is that it is because Henry knew what he did (and that everybody would see it), had the opportunity to say ‘sorry, I handled the ball’ and still chose to deceive the ref. And then he sits down with the Irish players to say ‘yeah it was hand ball, it sucks for you, but hey..you understand right’. He should have run off the pitch in shame. > [@Xema](#): > > But it appears that was a case of incorrect application of the rules, whereas the current case involves an incorrect judgment call. > [@RickJay](#): > > The two situations are not analogous. > > In the 2005 game, the protest was based on the referee making an error in the interpretation of the rules. I won’t recount the incident in detail because the link is a perfect description, but basically the match proceeded from an incorrect application of the rules, not a referee’s call as to what happened on the field. Rules applications can be appealed, and result in a rematch. > > In the case of the Ireland-France fiasco, the error was a judgement call as to the play on the field; there was a hand ball and the ref missed it. The Laws of the Game clearly state that judgement calls are final. Both of you are correct, the difference between the two cases is that in the Bahrain game the ref made a decision and then proceeded in a way that is not consistent with the rules (given his decsion) that’s why it was calle’d a ‘technical mistake’. In the Ireland game the ref just made the wrong decision. I also agree with the no-replay verdict, ordering a replay would open pandoras box…every game will have to be played twice before it would stand. If the French would offer one on the other hand, i’d be all for it; would also redeem the French a bit. I do think th FIFA has dropped the ball on this by not acknowledging what happened. After the game the fifa site onlt said france won and didn’t mention anything about the controversy…like it would go away if they just ignored it; pissed me of royally, that. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/91 "2009-11-20T13:44:55Z")
Sky Sports News reports that Henry has said that the fair solution would be for the game to be replayed and also that the Irish definitely deserve to be in S.Africa. It aint gonna happen, the French FA have said so. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/92 "2009-11-20T14:00:04Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Does anyone in this thread agree with DSYoungEsq in that professional fouls are seen as not cheating and most fans don’t even consider them bad? I do not agree with him at all. Professional fouls are seen as very bad form. [Wicked poo dear](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_foul): > [@](#): > > FIFA first instructed its referees to send off for a professional foul prior to the 1990 World Cup, and in 1991 the provision that a professional foul should be considered serious foul play was incorporated into the Laws as a Decision of the IFAB. The professional foul was made a red card offence in its own right in 1998. > > Subsequently, the wording of Law 12 was changed and the term professional foul was replaced by denying an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to remove the implication that in order for a red card to be issued, such a foul had to be deliberate. Currently, if a player denies a player an obvious goalscoring opportunity by foul means, whether deliberate or not, he is sent off. ---
**Author:** ![MJinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@MJinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MJinks)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/93 "2009-11-20T14:16:30Z")
I can’t answer for most fans but I personally don’t consider professional fouls to be cheating. The player isn’t trying to deceive anyone, they are just using the last option available to prevent a goal scoring opportunity. Most players seem to accept their cards afterwards without complaining, be it yellow or red. If it’s a violent foul then they deserve a ban, of course. If a player tries to pretend he didn’t mean it then that’s cheating. ---
**Author:** ![Hrududu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Hrududu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrududu)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/94 "2009-11-20T14:56:45Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Sky Sports News reports that Henry has said that the fair solution would be for the game to be replayed and also that the Irish definitely deserve to be in S.Africa. > > It aint gonna happen, the French FA have said so. And he waited for FIFA to say no to the replay before coming out with his statement. Desperate to keep his reputation. If he’d said it to the ref after the goal was scored then maybe I’d think he was genuine. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/95 "2009-11-20T15:13:08Z")
> [@MJinks](#): > > I can’t answer for most fans but I personally don’t consider professional fouls to be cheating. The player isn’t trying to deceive anyone, they are just using the last option available to prevent a goal scoring opportunity. Most players seem to accept their cards afterwards without complaining, be it yellow or red. If it’s a violent foul then they deserve a ban, of course. If a player tries to pretend he didn’t mean it then that’s cheating. I think you have a far more rigid view of cheating than most. For example, under your definition if an athlete is taking performance enhancing drugs but holds his hands up and says “yes I did it” when found out then he isn’t cheating. Additionally, many professional fouls are attempts at deception. They are not all clear hack downs, they can also be subtle little tugs on the back of the shirt to slow a player down so he can be tackled. You very often see players claim, via body language, that they have done nothing wrong yet the video replay clearly shows they have. ---
**Author:** ![ColonelDax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@ColonelDax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColonelDax)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/96 "2009-11-20T15:44:48Z")
Anyone with a bit of time to kill might find [this](http://www.jeu-de-main.com/) amusing. 😃 My condolences to the Irish, you guys got utterly screwed. ---
**Author:** ![MJinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@MJinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MJinks)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/97 "2009-11-20T16:35:55Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I think you have a far more rigid view of cheating than most. For example, under your definition if an athlete is taking performance enhancing drugs but holds his hands up and says “yes I did it” when found out then he isn’t cheating. Well taking performance enhancing drugs is clearly outlawed under any circumstances. It’s not part of the game in any shape or form. A professional foul is just a normal foul with a specific intent. I doubt anyone will say that a normal foul should be considered cheating even though it’s against the rules and punishable by various means. If the intent is to deceive the referee then I would agree that it’s cheating, I accept that this is the case in some professional fouls. If the intent is just to prevent a goal scoring opportunity then I don’t think it’s cheating, not when the player accepts their red card. They are gaining an advantage but I don’t think it’s an _unfair_ advantage, not when they accept the red card before even making the tackle. Is a goalkeeper bringing down the last man a cheater? He obviously deserves a red card but I don’t think it’s cheating, even if it was intentional. I realise lots of people disagree with me, that’s fair enough. On the other hand, diving is never part of the game. There are no times where diving is allowed, no matter the intent. A successful dive is always an unfair advantage and a massive one at that. It’s cheating. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/98 "2009-11-20T16:42:43Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Just out of interest, how long have you lived in the US, a country not known for either the high quality of its football or particularly large amounts of coverage of the sport? > > Does anyone in this thread agree with DSYoungEsq in that professional fouls are seen as not cheating and most fans don’t even consider them bad? I don’t see what brought on this underhanded attempt to discredit whatever **DSYoungEsq** says just because he is from the US - as far as I can tell by his posts, **DSYoungEsq** is intimately aware of the game and the rules, both by watching and by playing. I don’t think, for instance, that he would have suggested that FIFA can’t make teams replay a game. As to professional fouls, let me put it like this: I think it is generally accepted that defenders, in the course of their career, will incur a much larger number of yellow and (occasionally) red cards; this is anticipated by players, coaches and fans alike and I don’t think anyone makes a really big deal out of it. That is not to say that each individual foul is not a foul - they are, and that is why they are penalized. On the whole, though, I would say that a defender is not much of a defender if he never takes a yellow card in order to defuse a potentially dangerous situation for his team. It’s certainly not my favorite aspect of the game but it is most certainly not something I can get all riled up about. I’m sort of ‘meh’ about it, whereas other fouls I find much more galling (maybe we should change this to ‘gauling’ after Wednesday’s match), such as deceptive things like diving and intentionally handling the ball, and also psychotically violent career-ending fouls (unless they are directed at Christiano Ronaldo - I can’t wait for his career to be over :p) ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/99 "2009-11-20T16:50:17Z")
> [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](#): > > This is not true from what I have heard from it, yesterday Dara O’Brain said on the BBC that very few Irish fans had seen the handball in the stadium (and they also didn’t show the replay on the screens) and were extra distrought when they saw/were told what really happened. I wasn’t with the Irish fans but with a French client of mine. I saw it clear as day. So did he. And I know Dara 🙂 > [@](#): > > Anyhow, there were two people (ref and linesman) standing outside a penalty area full of moving players. It is always possible that at the second the handball was made, both of them had hampered views. It is not that the ref saw the incident and thought ist was ball to hand or anything, he just didn’t see it and appearantly was crying in his dressingroom after seeing what really happened. This could have happened to anyone. The linesman was directly across from the goalline. Honestly, it was hard not to see it. A Swedish daily absolutely savaged the ref and his team. I’m still amazed at the amount of coverage it’s gotten in the US. > [@](#): > > This is why I think no amout of stick is too much to throw at Henry, he knew what happened, he knew the ref had missed it and he chose to keep it that way (by running away celebrating as if nothing had happened). People say anyone would have done the same, but I’m quite sure this is not the case. This season alone I’ve seen at least three incidents in which a ref mad a decision (also on handball) just to have the player that got the free kick make clear there was no foul…the ref changed the decision and they were on their mary way again. Henry chose for this option and I hope people won’t forget. I agree and this will follow him. Even he seems to want a replay.[http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652\_5706974,00.html](http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_5706974,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083/100 "2009-11-20T16:57:45Z")
Who says cheating is wrong? After all It got us one World Cup 🙂 Jokes aside, its only a game… deal with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deepest-sympathys-to-all-you-irish-out-there/518083.md?page=6)