# The Definite Article and Band Names **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611 "2006-07-30T22:11:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/1 "2006-07-30T22:11:35Z")
I’ve finally gotten around to organizing my MP3s. I need your advice on this problem. While should it be: [ul] [li]Beatles[/li][li]Beatles, The[/li][li]The Beatles[/li][/ul] I’m using iTunes, so it doesn’t matter for searching. But I do want to stay consistent. I’m leaning towards “Beatles” i.e. not even considering the “The” as part of the name (except for “The The” I guess). What say you? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/2 "2006-07-30T23:00:07Z")
My system is modeled after Blockbuster’s, because I [del]served time [/del] worked there so long it started to make sense to me. “A”, “An” and “The” don’t count for alphabetizing, numbers come before letters in numerical order - unless the numbers are spelled out in letters, in which case they go in alphabetically. Letters are letters, even if pronounced as letters, and are alphabetized accordingly. So it’d be: 5 For Fighting 10,000 Maniacs Beatles, The Boy Named Gomer, A Emotional Fish, An Five Man Electrical Band Nine Inch Nails The, The 😉 Three Dog Night U2 UB40 Who, The But I’ve never been satisfied with the placement of U2. Does it go before UB40, because numbers (2) go before letters (B)? Or does that only count if the name starts with a number? I try not to lose sleep over it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/3 "2006-07-30T23:04:59Z")
Having worked in several music stores, I agree with the above completely. That’s the way I organize my CD’s, records, MP3’s, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/4 "2006-07-30T23:30:48Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Having worked in several music stores, I agree with the above completely. That’s the way I organize my CD’s, records, MP3’s, etc. [/QUOTE] I agree as well. In the example given in the OP, “The” is part of the band name “The Beatles,” so it should always be included as part of the name. (Of course, it is standard when alphabetizing to move the article to the back.) In other cases, it is NOT part of the band name, such as “Nirvana.” ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/5 "2006-07-30T23:35:59Z")
Bands are alphabetized by band name, ignore A, An, or The (except, as noted for The The). Solo artists are alphabetized by last name. Groups made up of two names (Simon and Garfunkle) are treated like groups if they use only last names, and alphabetized by the last name of the top billed artist if full names are concerned (e.g., Tim Fogleberg and Tim Weisberg goes under “F”). Probably the most considerate combination of that nature was when Alvin Lee made and album with Mylon LeFevre and both were billed. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/6 "2006-07-31T05:45:08Z")
[QUOTE=Nature’s Call] I’ve finally gotten around to organizing my MP3s. I need your advice on this problem. While should it be: [ul] [li]Beatles[/li][li]Beatles, The[/li][li]The Beatles[/li][/ul] I’m using iTunes, so it doesn’t matter for searching. [/QUOTE] Or sorting. iTunes ignores the articles when sorting. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/7 "2006-07-31T13:36:36Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/8 "2006-07-31T13:50:53Z")
Just don’t forget that Pixies are just Pixies, not The Pixies. People always seem to want to add an article. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/9 "2006-07-31T13:56:07Z")
[QUOTE=wm–] Just don’t forget that Pixies are just Pixies, not The Pixies. People always seem to want to add an article. [/QUOTE] Including the Pixies [themselves,](http://www.pixiesmusic.com/) it seems. It’s just too awkward without the article! But I will keep it lower case from now on. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/10 "2006-07-31T15:05:26Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] But I will keep it lower case from now on. [/QUOTE] Same for Beastie Boys, Buzzcocks, Cream, Counting Crows, Flamin’ Groovies, Foo Fighters, Gang of Four, Indigo Girls, Minutemen, Poster Children, Sex Pistols, Talking Heads, and Yeah Yeah Yeahs. (I think Prodigy and Small Faces skip the article too, but I’m not sure on those.) Conversely, you usually hear just Smashing Pumpkins but they are technically _the_ Smashing Pumpkins! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/11 "2006-07-31T15:20:54Z")
The result of my years programming (personally, not professionally) have ingrained in my head the basic order of things. Thus, numbers and symbols (shift-number keys) come before letters because their ASCII character values are lower. Bands or albums starting with a number that is spelled out however (i.e. Eight Seconds, Seven and the Ragged Tiger) are alphabetized by their normal alphabetic positioning. This may seem inconsistent but I generally know which is which because I’m a bit anal about band/album names being accurate. Regarding articles, I prefer them to be alphabetized irrespective of the article, but I want them named with their article in the forefront as was intended, because “Art of Noise, The” just looks wrong from an esthetic point of view. Fortunately iTunes knows all of this and alphabetizes just as I like it. I’m a bit on the fence about symbols though. The first two album entries on my iTunes are: 808 State - (mixed) Azura 808 State - 10 X 10 These are the official names of the albums, but I think I’d prefer to see the first sorted in with the Ms. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/12 "2006-07-31T15:24:00Z")
[This name](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Princesymbol.png) might be a challenge to alphabetize. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/13 "2006-07-31T15:38:15Z")
[QUOTE=Bytegeist] [This name](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Princesymbol.png) might be a challenge to alphabetize. [/QUOTE] I did work alphabetizing music\* when that was his name (he changed it again, as that article mentions), and we put it under “Prince” as in “Prince, that idiot with the symbol name.” In my personal collection, I’d put it in the round file on the floor to the right of my desk. YMMV. \*There was a brief period after the buyout of several record stores when Blockbuster also carried CDs. I think they cut that shit out a while ago. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/14 "2006-07-31T15:43:46Z")
“The Definite Article” would make a good band name. I agree that the article should be moved to the back in alphabetizing. My mp3 player sorts them as if “the” were the word so there are so many bands under the “t” listing. It’s annoying, but not enough for me to change it. ---
**Author:** ![ddgryphon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8c91f0/32.png) [@ddgryphon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ddgryphon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/15 "2006-07-31T16:11:31Z")
definite and indefinite articles don’t count when alphabetizing. ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/16 "2006-07-31T16:44:52Z")
[QUOTE=davenportavengerMy mp3 player sorts them as if “the” were the word so there are so many bands under the “t” listing.[/QUOTE] iPod is annoyingly inconstent about this. “The”-bands are alphabetized by the word after “The,” but “A” isn’t treated the same way. And when you drill down to albums, articles aren’t treated differently. I also wish they’d include a flag to mark names of individual people (vs. band names) so they could be alphabetized by last name. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/17 "2006-07-31T17:46:06Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] My system is modeled after Blockbuster’s, because I [del]served time [/del] worked there so long it started to make sense to me. “A”, “An” and “The” don’t count for alphabetizing, numbers come before letters in numerical order - unless the numbers are spelled out in letters, in which case they go in alphabetically. Letters are letters, even if pronounced as letters, and are alphabetized accordingly. So it’d be: 5 For Fighting 10,000 Maniacs Beatles, The Boy Named Gomer, A Emotional Fish, An Five Man Electrical Band Nine Inch Nails The, The 😉 Three Dog Night U2 UB40 Who, The But I’ve never been satisfied with the placement of U2. Does it go before UB40, because numbers (2) go before letters (B)? Or does that only count if the name starts with a number? I try not to lose sleep over it. [/QUOTE] Normal except that 10,000 Maniacs ought to come before 5 For Fighting, as it’s not the value of the whole number you look at - you examine each digit respectively. At least that’s what’s standard in libraries. And U2 should definitely come before UB40, as 2 comes before B - numbers come before letters in alphabetical order. Though I label my _The The_ mp3s as _The The_, not _The, The_. Or _, The, The_. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/18 "2006-07-31T21:10:08Z")
[QUOTE=Yookeroo] Or sorting. iTunes ignores the articles when sorting. [/QUOTE] Hey! You’re right! I’ve never noticed that before! > [@Mindfield](#): > > Regarding articles, I prefer them to be alphabetized irrespective of the article, but I want them named with their article in the forefront as was intended, because “Art of Noise, The” just looks wrong from an esthetic point of view. Fortunately iTunes knows all of this and alphabetizes just as I like it. I’ve never liked the comma solution, but I didn’t want a glut of “T” entries. Now that I know iTunes ignores the “the” I’m leaving it firmly in place. Now all that’s left is to come up with some way to decide when “The” actually IS part of the name (Smashing Pumpkins? Tragically Hip? The Pixies or not? sheesh!) ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/19 "2006-07-31T21:12:31Z")
What I don’t understand is why iTunes ignores initial articles when sorting artist names, but doesn’t do likewise when sorting song titles. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611/20 "2006-08-02T04:37:11Z")
While we’re at it… is there any way to change the spelling of entries on my iPod? I’d rather have songs which begin with numbers spelled out, so that they don’t all pile up at the top of the SONGS display, for instance. Songs with parentheses at the beginning of their titles also accumulate there. Come to think of it, several songs I ripped from CDs have misspellings which I’d like to correct. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definite-article-and-band-names/366611.md?page=2)