# The Definitive Rules of Flying **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 15, 2023, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650 "2023-12-15T19:52:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/81 "2023-12-17T23:51:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I am a mechanical engineer, but I would think that each individual lock would be maybe a couple of ounces more than the current latch mechanism, and would cost less than 100 bucks. Given the cost of a plane, I would think both the cost and weight would not be tremendous. But maybe I’m wrong. That kinda shows. With due respect. My education was in software and I worked in IT full-time for a decade-plus before and in between my various airline stints. One of the maxims of business and software is that you cannot solve an organizational incentive or employee behavior problem with tech solutions. Tech solutions fix tech problems, and only human management solutions fix human behavior problems. Software that attempts to subvert the natural incentives by management fiat will simply be worked around by the workers and will fail as a business process as well as fail at changing actual behavior in the direction management hoped. I suggest that maxim applies here. We need a human solution to this unhelpful human behavior. Ideally by altering incentives so them doing what’s best for everyone / the airline is also the thing they perceive as their own individual optimal play. Like _jiu jitsu_ / _judo_, we can’t prevent their selfish momentum (much) so we need to use clever leverage (in the human domain) to divert their selfish momentum in service of our goals. There are lots of ops research and human behavioral folks in the industry working on this. Boarding method experiments keep getting tried at each carrier and if successful they tend to be copied since they can’t be kept secret nor patented. IMO the one that shows the greatest promise is Southwest’s approach. Do away with assigned seats entirely, but assign a strict boarding sequence to all. People will tend to fill the plane front to back and dump their luggage the first place it fits. Which, ref nearly everyone else already seated farther forward, will tend to be at / near their own seat. IMO that’s a different and slightly less chaotic form of chaos. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/82 "2023-12-18T00:27:56Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > > [@doreen](#): > > > > I’ve streamed on my own tablet using my own subscription at least on Jet Blue - can’t swear about other airlines. From [Jet Blue](https://www.jetblue.com/flying-with-us/wifi) > > Yes, a couple of airlines offer live satellite TV – JetBlue has had it I believe as long as they’ve existed, and Continental added a similar system in the late aughts, which is still present on at least some of the planes in United’s fleet. But I don’t believe any of them offer premium channels like HBO that would show anything with uncensored nudity or anything like that. I think it’s pretty much limited to the standard basic cable channels. I’ve watched HBO on United flights. I have also absolutely watched uncensored movies, with all the violence, profanity and nudity still there. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/83 "2023-12-18T00:40:10Z")
Wow. Color me schooled. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/84 "2023-12-18T00:51:56Z")
This is a bit of an aside. But I am curious given your expertise. Canada recently was dinged by the ICAO: going from an excellent 95% audit score to a recent barely passing 64%. Is this cause for real concern? Is the process generally considered fair and functional? Canada has not had increased accidents AFAIK, but of course prevention is the point. Have other places trended down? Your views, please. > **[Canada scores poorly in UN aviation agency safety oversight audit](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canada-scores-poorly-in-un-aviation-agency-safety-oversight-audit/)** > > Audit found multiple lapses in Transport Canada’s supervision of the country’s airlines, commercial pilots, air traffic control and licensing regimes ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/85 "2023-12-18T02:54:29Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > That kinda shows. With due respect. My education was in software and I worked in IT full-time for a decade-plus before and in between my various airline stints. > > One of the maxims of business and software is that you cannot solve an organizational incentive or employee behavior problem with tech solutions. Tech solutions fix tech problems, and only human management solutions fix human behavior problems. Again, I claim no specific expertise here, and I freely agree that my proposed solution might not work. But your specific argument against it is odd. The world is full of tech solutions to human behavior problems. And one of the classic tech solutions to human behavior problems is, get this, a lock. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/86 "2023-12-18T12:45:21Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > One of the maxims of business and software is that you cannot solve an organizational incentive or employee behavior problem with tech solutions. Yup. You cannot fix a bad business model with good software. I know the flight attendents are very busy, but couldn’t they keep a sharp eye out for which group of seats are boarding and where people are putting there bags? They have the authority (or the captain does) to kick you off the flight if you do not follow instructions. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/87 "2023-12-18T13:31:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The world is full of tech solutions to human behavior problems. And one of the classic tech solutions to human behavior problems is, get this, a lock. I think the idea is that the lock doesn’t actually solve the problem as the behavior will resume if the lock breaks or if people find a way around it. And that’s true - but it’s also true that lots of times that’s both the best we can do and good enough most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/88 "2023-12-18T14:47:10Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > the flight attendents are very busy, but couldn’t they keep a sharp eye out for which group of seats are boarding and where people are putting there bags? I’ve often wondered this, too. When I fly a wide-bodied plane (two aisles,10 seats per row) there are almost 300 passengers, and I see four or five flight attendants just standing at the door or the jetway smiling.One of them is doing an important job–keeping the traffic flowing by telling each person which aisle to walk down for his seat at 46K. or 18A But the others are just smiling at me weirdly as if I’m a good friend or something .( yes, I find it irritating. ) But surely they could do something more useful: lead a group of 10 people down an aisle, and tell them “these 6 overhead bins are for you-and you only-, put your wheeled bags in sideways laying on the narrow side.No, do not use that bin, it’s for the passengers in the next row” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/89 "2023-12-18T15:03:57Z")
And how do these FAs get back to the front of the plane? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/90 "2023-12-18T15:19:31Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I think the idea is that the lock doesn’t actually solve the problem as the behavior will resume if the lock breaks or if people find a way around it. A couple of ways around it: any given overhead bin appears to serve three or four rows of seats. So unless the airline defines one boarding zone for each overhead bin, they’ll need to have multiple bins unlocked on either side of the plane for boarding - so jerk passengers will still have an opportunity to slip their carry-on bag in the forward-most unlocked bin, regardless of where they sit. And airlines will never define such small boarding zones. Even if they _did_ define boarding zones so small that only one bin at a time on each side of the aisle could be unlocked, jerk passengers will still happily stick their luggage at the front of the bin - meaning anyone seated under the front of the bin will end up having to put their luggage at the rear of the bin, making the deboarding process messy for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/91 "2023-12-18T15:21:35Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > And how do these FAs get back to the front of the plane? No need. They could stand in say… the rows 10, 20 and 30. Herd the passengers towards the back and just keep an eye out for people that are not putting a bag somewhere near where their seats are. “No, you can’t put your bag there” seems easy enough. If they complain, or ignore instructions go soup nazi on them. “Do you want to go to your destination, or not?” Once a few people get kicked off and you see that on YAHOOO. THAT will get enough get peoples attention to pay attention and stop being assholes. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/92 "2023-12-18T15:36:27Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > And how do these FAs get back to the front of the plane? It’s not that hard for one person to walk “against the flow” of 15 passengers. I’ve done it when …duh…looking for an overhead bin because all the ones near me were full. Yes, I’m a thin person…but so are most flight attendants. And they are in uniform and have authority–all they have to do is tell somebody “excuse me” (translation: “I’m coming thru here, get out of my way”) . Then you both twist your bodies till you as standing back-to-back, and pass by… ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/93 "2023-12-18T15:50:24Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > The seat is designed to lean back. That is what you are supposed to do with it. That is what you paid for, too. > > And if it causes a problem for the person behind you, well…guess what? He can lean his seat back, too!!! Amazing !!! And _this_ is what’s wrong with people. Yes, the seats were also designed with ashtrays in the armrests, but you can’t smoke. Times change. The seats used to be farther apart. So, you lean your seat back into me, and I lean my seat back, and so on and so on and…what happens with the guy in the last row? Remember your grade school dominoes? Of course, the complaint isn’t that the TV is too close to our non-recliners heads, but it is too close to our knees. Reclining our seats doesn’t fix that. And a second’s thought would cause one to realize that there are like 4 emergency exit seats per plane and 100 people that would like to have them. > [@chappachula](#): > > Deal with it. Oh don’t worry. We will. You won’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/94 "2023-12-18T16:00:37Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > So, you lean your seat back into me, and I lean my seat back, and so on and so on and…what happens with the guy in the last row? Remember your grade school dominoes? ya wanna know what happens? I’ll tell ya! I lean my seat back, you lean yours, and so on an so on…and the result is: Fifty people in fifty rows are all comfortably relaxed in their seats, and one person in row 51 is not as comfortable. Deal with it. ( When you buy your seat, you can chose where you sit, you know. ) > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Of course, the complaint isn’t that the TV is too close to our non-recliners heads, but it is too close to our knees. Reclining our seats doesn’t fix that. Well, according to LSLguy’s posts above, it actually DOES fix that, because the new seats move the bottom cushion forward, and do NOT affect the knees of the person behind you. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/95 "2023-12-18T19:57:06Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Fifty people in fifty rows are all comfortably relaxed in their seats, and one person in row 51 is not as comfortable. It’s also the case that the very last row can recline as well as any of the earlier rows. At least on all the planes I’m familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/96 "2023-12-18T20:52:08Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Naw, that’s how you tell who the self-important assholes are. They think they own the seat in front and have the right to stop people from using an amenity they paid for. Or conversely, the self-important assholes think that they own the seat behind them and have the right to force me out of the seat that I have paid for. And that’s why I only recline one notch, if at all, and really slowly. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/97 "2023-12-18T21:30:06Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Once a few people get kicked off and you see that on YAHOOO. THAT will get enough get peoples attention to pay attention and stop being assholes. - It would take summary execution to get through some peoples’ skulls. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/98 "2023-12-19T21:01:04Z")
Usually true but not always. I remember once when I had a free flight with frequent miles, but was placed in a seat at the back which would not recline. Hope things have improved. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/99 "2023-12-19T21:14:59Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > No need. > They could stand in say… the rows 10, 20 and 30. Herd the passengers towards the back and just keep an eye out for people that are not putting a bag somewhere near where their seats are. If passengers in the back boarded first, wouldn’t they know that the bins in back will still be empty when they get to their seats? There’s no need to stash their carry-ons at the front. Or, rather than unlocking bins as different groups board the plane, airlines could put sensors and lights in the overhead bins, like parking garages now have. As you’re walking down the aisle to your seat, you can see that there is still space in the bins closer to our seat. Fill the bins from back to front just as they fill the seats from back to front. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650/100 "2023-12-19T21:47:24Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > If passengers in the back boarded first, wouldn’t they know that the bins in back will still be empty when they get to their seats? There’s no need to stash their carry-ons at the front. … The rationale (or what passes for it) is probably convenience: they won’t have to be burdened with their carry-ons from the front to the rear and back again. If it inconveniences the people actually seated in that area, that’s their problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-definitive-rules-of-flying/994650.md?page=6)