# The Democratic Domino Theory Revisited **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648 "2005-03-02T21:00:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/241 "2005-03-09T15:33:46Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Do I get a medal or something? No, y9u get the opportunity (which you already had) to demonstrate why you extrapolate that the pro-peace movement, both in the US and in the great majority, is simply a Trotskyite front. Thanks for the snicker, pal. While you’re at it, you can explain what your point was in mentioning Ted Kennedy. Why not toss in Hillary and Michael Moore while you’re at it? > [@](#): > > If you march with the Klan, you’re endorsing the Klan. Would you similarly assert that the pro-war movement was simply a Klan front, then? That the Klan was running it? That its followers were Klan dupes? That’s what you’re claiming above - and it’s no wonder your readers are laughing at you. > [@](#): > > Now here’s the thing. A lot – and I mean a LOT of the so-called peace rallies or other mass demonstrations in the US are organized and funded by International ANSWER or the groups for which they front, the International Action Center and the Worker’s World Party. Not to be trite, but … cite? Evidence that this particular small band of wackos, as opposed to any other small band of wackos you might have chosen, runs anything substantive at all? We know you read, and lap up, some partisan blogs, but can you explain (once again) why you > [@](#): > > And **Elvis** , I’m telling you, no shit, that these are bad, bad people. Both of them? > [@](#): > > And yeah. Hundreds of thousands of perfectly ordinary people, patriotic Americans, who oppose the war march behind these guys without a clue. Once again, you are refusing to get it. You’re taking the easy, irresponsible, hateful direction of dismissing any view that differs from your own as being the result of cluelessness affecting only dupes. Don’t you have any interest at all in learning more about the world? Do you admit any possibility, ever, that you might be wrong? _Why should anyone take your spoutings seriously?_ Thanks for the chuckles. I need a few today. _Trotskyites?_ **John Mace** , you’ve got a better way to count? Stand and deliver. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/242 "2005-03-09T15:39:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Trotskyites! (snicker) Makes me wonder if friend **Manny** actually _knows_ any honest-to-gosh leftists, or if he is merely reflecting the quaint political notions of a byone era? Ah, yes, the Trotskyist, the very last of the Commie true believers, one of the few people left who can use terms like “dictatorship of the Prorletariat” while keeping a straight face. Actually, “Trotskyite” is the _polite_ way to refer to them, a nod to their orgins (they formed out of the old Socialist Worker’s Party in disagreement over the Soviet invasion of Hungary – they supported it). They self-describe as neo-Leninist and other communists groups, for whom WWP is too extreme, tend to describe them as Stalinists. But you’d know that if you ever, ever bothered to do any research for yourself. There’s plenty of direct links in the wikipedia article **John Mace** cited. I know you have a long long history of intentional ignorance of facts and an almost physical aversion to citations; it’s time to get over that before directing your sorry, snarky shit at me. > [@](#): > > No, **Manny** , you don’t get it. It is of no consequence whatsoever who “calls” an anti-war rally, the only central point is what the rally is _about_. We don’t care who got the permit, somebody who either is or knows a lawyer, we guess, and could n’t care less! You can’t “lead” an anti-war movement anymore than you can herd cats! A very large segment of what you may as well call “leftists” wouldn’t know ANSWER from the dog pound, and, like me, chuckle at the very word “Trotskyist”! I already said the very thing you said in your last sentence. Now everyone who has read this thread knows better. I’ll hold back further comment until you actually look these guys up. > [@](#): > > You really oughta get out more. Says the guy who couldn’t even be bothered to Google “workers world party.” The internets have more than one site, you know. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/243 "2005-03-09T15:39:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **John Mace** , you’ve got a better way to count? Stand and deliver. Um, what do you think I did in my first post on the subject? I cited the way almost everyone is following this-- monthly data. Anyway, this is so far off topic, I’m not going to continue the hijack. As I said already, taking a 2 year timeframe and reducing it to only 3 data points to find a “trend” is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/244 "2005-03-09T15:44:09Z")
In marked contrast to ‘Iraq as the next Vietnam’ claims of some war opponents, [Vietnamese dissident Nguyen Dan Que hopes that Vietnam will be the next Iraq](http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/cRosett/?id=110006390). Money quote: > [@](#): > > …he wished to share his views on how America’s intervention in Iraq is like the war in Vietnam, and how it isn’t. The similarity, he says, “is the same fighting spirit for freedom.” The difference, he adds, is that in the fight for freedom, the side America is on “will triumph this time.” > Why? > > “The world is changing,” says Dr. Que. “There are more opportunities than ever.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/245 "2005-03-09T18:33:52Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I cited the way almost everyone is following this-- monthly data. As arbitrary a cutoff as any other. For instance: There were no reported deaths today but there were yesterday; has the war ended? There were more this week than the week before; is it getting worse? The appropriate scale might be one that matches the pace of insurgent activity, but that’s a bit erratic as well. Even in a traditional army vs. army war, the deaths come in batches whenever battles are fought. Day to day or even month to month figures are less indicative of the strength and resolve of the enemy than longer time frames. Bottom line remains: What is the evidence that the insurgency and its popular support is actually weakening substantially, as the war supporters would like to have us believe? I’m not aware of any. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/246 "2005-03-09T18:37:24Z")
Is there a Nobel Prize for Irrelevent? Dr. Que has my sympathy and support in his opposition to an authoritarian regime. The Hanoi regime bites it, as is commonly the fact of authoritarian regimes. I might even be moved to a public protest, if I could be asssured that the organization organizing such an event had no ties to anarcho-syndicalism… But what, precisely, does Dr. Que know about Iraq? Other than his sympathy for what he imagines are American goals and aspirations, what expertise are we to be impressed by? ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/247 "2005-03-09T18:43:20Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > In marked contrast to ‘Iraq as the next Vietnam’ claims of some war opponents, [Vietnamese dissident Nguyen Dan Que hopes that Vietnam will be the next Iraq](http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/cRosett/?id=110006390). Money quote: I bid the doctor all the luck in the world in his efforts to transform his country. What makes him an expert on what’s happening the Middle East? The article states: > [@](#): > > Dr. Que does not have access to the daily diet of news that feeds the free world. But given the feats of modern technology to spread information, he knows enough about what is now happening in the Middle East so that he wished to share his views on how America’s intervention in Iraq is like the war in Vietnam, and how it isn’t. Okay, so he has at the very best, no more access than most folks have, in fact, perhaps less according to his own complaints. I’m not understanding where he gets his tremendous insight regarding America’s “rightness” in this venture. I think it would be interesting to see how he felt about the rightness of American actions in his country 30 years ago, just for some perspective. Regardless, one reads on and sees at the bottom of the article… > [@](#): > > Ms. Rosett is a journalist-in-residence with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Ahhh… The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. That bastion of non-partisan egalitarian human enlightenment. The newest illegitimate offspring of the Neocons. Say, **manhattan** , you weren’t trying to prove **quixotic78** point about cherry-picking soundbites, were you? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/248 "2005-03-09T20:10:05Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Already had it’s own thread- the one you referenced in your OP [Defending the Democratic Domino Theory of the ME](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=235228&page=1&pp=50) > > As now, no one much wanted to address the issue then. IMHO, it seems a more relvevant to ask if what one sets a bout to do is useful than to ask if it can be accomplished. Well, actually it seems to me that at least one person made a plausible case of how it _might_ work. And then asked you if you had any better ideas. Which you didn’t, and as far as I can tell, still don’t. I was never a 100% fan of the Bush/neocon doctrine. But I did realize that the people who are actually in power have to come up with an actual real-world strategy. And while there has been constructive criticism on specific tactics or methods (i.e., the mistake of disbanding the Iraqi Army), nobody that I am aware of posited a concrete, plausible alternative route, other than "remove the Taliban, and after that treat it like a criminal investigation. " > [@](#): > > I’m eager to see the widespread democratic reform in the ME. Me too. Do you think we should actually do anything to bring it about, and do you have any concrete ideas on how this might happen? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/249 "2005-03-09T23:05:34Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No, all that shows is that Kennedy is not as rabidly partisan as _you_, which should cause you no end of soul-searching and reflection. Oh, wow, **Brutus** on rabid partisanship. That’s even more outrageously laughable than [a Catholic priest dissing Michael Jackson for pedophilia…](http://alienlovespredator.com/index.php?id=83) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/250 "2005-03-10T00:48:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But how much of that oil are they actually able to ship out of the country and sell? Do you know? I can’t seem to find that out by googling, but I’ve heard a lot of news reports about pipelines being blown up. The important factor here is not the oil stream but the **revenue** stream. > > And, come to think of it, when Iraqi oil is sold abroad – who gets the money? Formerly, the oilfields and their revenues belonged to the state. Now, I understand, they have been or are being “privatized” – but into whose hands? Again, I can’t seem to find that out by googling. Having received no answer to the above in this thread, I started a GD thread: “Is Iraq now exporting oil? And who now owns the oilfields and revenues?” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5929860#post5929860](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5929860#post5929860) I’ll let you know what comes up. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/251 "2005-03-10T01:07:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Having received no answer to the above in this thread, I started a GD thread: "Is Iraq now exporting oil? LIAR! That thread’s in GQ. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/252 "2005-03-10T01:57:43Z")
There is simply no end to the perfidy of some people. I feel compelled to condemn this latest misrepresentation of the facts by a leftish type person, otherwise I’m gonna be hearing about it twenty years from now. “Oh, sure, when President Jenna Bush tells a widdle bitty fib, you got nuts, but when ol’ **Brain Glutton** tells a bald faced lie, its no big deal, you didn’t say anything about it! How come you didn’t call _him_ a liar, huh? Howcome!?” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/253 "2005-03-10T06:31:08Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Well, actually it seems… You’ve had a misunderstanding. Backtrack and retrack. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/254 "2005-03-10T19:59:50Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > You’ve had a misunderstanding. Backtrack and retrack. Ummm … perhaps I have but you’ll have to explain it. In the original thread I did indeed offer a defense of the idea. You may not accept it, but I did indeed argue it. I also offered an explanation of exactly _how_ it might work. I then asked you what your better idea was. You said to open a new thread, and I did. You never showed up to offer your better plan. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/255 "2005-03-10T20:07:26Z")
> [@furt](#): > > PatriotX asks some worthwhile questions in post #169 and elsewhere, essentially saying that whatever good may come in the ME,\*\* the only meaningful criteria of success or failure is US national interest; but I suggest a seperate thread for that.\*\* > [@PatriotX](#): > > Already had it’s own thread- the one you referenced in your OP two characters ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/256 "2005-03-11T02:38:10Z")
Update from Lebanon: On Tuesday, half a million demonstrators attended a \*\*pro-\*\*Syrian rally in Beirut, organized by Hezbollah. They chanted, “Beirut is free! America get out!” [http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,13031,1433038,00.html](http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,13031,1433038,00.html) (Only 70,000 attended the previous day’s rally against the Syrian occupation.) Never push over that first domino unless you’re sure which way the rest in line are going to fall. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/257 "2005-03-11T04:27:38Z")
I might be mistaken, but weren’t there similar pro Saddam rallies in Iraq? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/258 "2005-03-11T04:37:20Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > I might be mistaken, but weren’t there similar pro Saddam rallies in Iraq? :dubious: The difference being, that the Lebanese who turned out to rally against Syria on Monday apparently were not in danger of disappearing in the middle of the night, and haven’t. But still, they were far outnumbered by Syrian sympathizers on Tuesday – who, so far as we can tell, were not forced at gunpoint to go to the rally. That doesn’t prove pro-occupation (or pro-Hezbollah) feeling is running higher in Lebanon than anti- feeling, but it does show pretty clearly that public opinion is sharply divided, and “democracy” in Lebanon might not necessarily produce a result the Bush Admin or PNAC would find pleasing. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/259 "2005-03-11T06:46:41Z")
Well, the Bush administration could take a cue from folks like Fox News’ John Gibson, and say that they can [bomb the country with a clean conscience](http://www.newshounds.us/2005/03/10/gibson_bomb_a_democracy_with_clean_conscience.php) :eek: if things don’t go the way the Administration likes… (This must be more of that weird-ass “moral values” thing the Pubbies keep boasting about) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648/260 "2005-03-11T11:07:22Z")
Originally Posted by furt **PatriotX asks some worthwhile questions in post #169 and elsewhere, essentially saying that whatever good may come in the ME, the only meaningful criteria of success or failure is US national interest; but I suggest a seperate thread for that**. Originally Posted by PatriotX\*\* Already had it’s own thread- the one you referenced in your OP\*\* If you’ll notice, in the OP in referenced thread, [**Defending the Democratic Domino Theory of the ME**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=235228&page=1&pp=50), I asked, “**And how will a democratic ME make the US safer, (and what’s the evidence of this “how”)?**” Then in the third post in the thread I ask, “**If this spread does indeed occur via whatever mechanisms, what will make the reformed ME any different than Egypt, Pakistan et al? And most importantly, how will this make the US any safer?**” Again in post #9, “ **And how will democratic reform make the US safer? Particularly, if the will of the people is expressed and that will is hostile to the US?** ” So, you see, your response of, “ **Well, actually it seems to me that at least one person made a plausible case of how it might work. And then asked you if you had any better ideas. Which you didn’t, and as far as I can tell, still don’t** ,” is in regard to something other. The question of whether or not sweeping democratic reform in the ME would benefit the US, especially security-wise, hasn’t been well addressed despite having it’s own thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democratic-domino-theory-revisited/292648.md?page=14)