The Democratic Domino Theory Revisited

[Evil_One]

[QUOTE=Stratocaster]

[ul][li]The goals that the adminstration specifically identified and predicted would begin to unfold. Democracy would start to take root in the ME, with people specifically citing the “Bush Doctrine” as the inspiration for their efforts.[/li][li]The Left would snort, “Merely coincidence!”[/li][li]As democracy took a firmer hold, this would lead to, “Actually, this outcome was an inevitability, completely unrelated to anything the Bush adminstration did. In fact, I believe I may have predicted this back in the Clinton administration. Yes, nothing surprising here at all.”[/li][li]And finally, “Now that I think about it, the invasion of Iraq probably set back the cause of democracy. If only Bush hadn’t invaded Iraq, the tide would have turned months earlier. Damn Republicans!”[/ul][/li][/QUOTE]

This is brilliant. Bravo.

[manhattan]

@Nietzsche

Not sure I follow. How is this “for Iran?” If they cow to your threats, they won’t get bombed?

A nuclear-armed Iraq under the mullahs will be much much more difficult to reform, whether from the inside or the outside. There are those who say “why should’t Iraq be nuclear?” Here’s what I’m telling you. Under the mullahs, Iran will never, ever be nuclear. We will prevent that by diplomacy, by sanction or if necessary by force of arms. It’s just not going to happen. If the European counter to that is “OK, that’s right. But a future free Iran might want to join the nuclear club and they shouldn’t have any more blocks put up than were put up in front of such countries as India” then I think that helps the cause of reform. I certainly welcome other ideas in the context of the current Iran under the mullahs never, ever becoming a nuclear state. Because, again, it’s just not going to happen.

As for the rest of your suggestions for “The Left”, I’m a little confused. You are suggesting those who were opposed to such foolish policies abandon their objections and concerns and simply get on board because…?

Which of the things I suggested is contrary to the values or proposed policies of the left? Debt forgiveness?

But others who were, and still are, opposed to such policies see that “democracy” is bringing Islamist leaders to power, North Korea is responding to threats with more beligerence, and that the recent unrest in Lebanon is fuck all like the ones in Ukraine. So I would most humbly like to submit a suggestion of my own for the American right. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Not for “The Left,” for America.

I guess I’ll concede that my message was not meant for those on the left who oppose democracy. But those people are cordially invited to go bang bongos somewhere and get the fuck out of the way of history.

[manhattan]

@elucidator

It’s all rather odd. Manny singing from the Fuzzy Thinking One Worlder Hymn Book, a bit like Ayn Rand singing “That Old Rugged Cross”, boxed set, $19.95, not available in stores.

Thank you for your perceptive comments. How the fuck that’s not an insult I’ll never know, but there you go.

But we weren’t stupid, Manny, we were right, and events have shown that to be so.

Your comments are given all the consideration due to someone who opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. None. Go bang bongos somewhere and get the fuck out of the way of history.

[Evil_One]

There are those that are expressing themselves on this issue better than I…but I must jump in with the following point.

Ronald Reagan faced the same sort of screaming and revisionism following his policies regarding the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Ask someone on the left who the Eastern Europeans can thank for their freedom today…get your answer…and then ask someone actually from there.

Reagan gets more credit in Warsaw than he does in Wisconsin. That’s because the Eastern Europeans don’t have a political agenda to justify and defend.

I suspect the same sort of phenomenon will happen in the middle east in a couple of decades. GWB will get more credit over there than he will here.

That said, I am amused by the intellectual gymnastics by Bush opponents in here. Some of those moves are of olympic quality.

[BrainGlutton]

@Sam Stone

• If you had your way, billions of dollars from the oil-for-food program would still be flowing to corrupt politicians, and the Iraqi people would still be oppressed and starving.

As opposed to the present situation, in which Iraq’s oil and oil revenue are flowing nowhere, and the people are terrified and starving, and also suffer shortages of clean water, electric power, and medical care.

@Sam Stone

• If you had your way, the U.S. would have had to stand-down 70,000 troops amassed in Kuwait, in a humiliating defeat.

Or else, they never would have been amassed there in the first place.

@Sam Stone

• If you had your way, the plight of the Iraqi people under sanction would be used to whip up even more anti-American rhetoric in the ME, and the lack of alternatives to dictatorship would still be pushing young people towards extremism and violence. Now at least they have an alternative.

And yet, for some reason, so many of them seem to be freely choosing extremism and violence . . .

[BrainGlutton]

@manhattan

I guess I’ll concede that my message was not meant for those on the left who oppose democracy.

:dubious: Questioning whether overthrowing dictatorial regimes by armed force is justified is not the same thing as “opposing democracy.”

[Squink]

@BrainGlutton

And yet, for some reason, so many of them seem to be freely choosing extremism and violence . . .

Funny how the warmongers never talk about the wonderful terrorist training camp they’ve created in Iraq. I wonder what new horrors this next generation of combat hardened America haters will bring to our shores?

[Stratocaster]

@elucidator

Well, yes, at least in the numerical sense, since there is an untold number of Iraqis who are unqualified to participate in democratic processes, being…how shall I put this?..dead.

Yes, yes, of course, you’re right. Pre-invasion Iraq was undoubtedly a healthier and more democratic environment than the current one. No prematurely, what’s the word?–oh, yes!–dead Iraqis prior to the U.S. invasion. None at all. I forgot about this when I posted.

[elucidator]

[aside]

What is it with these guys and bongoes? I genuinely don’t get it. I don’t know anyone who owns a set of bongoes. Anybody in the lefty set have a clue about this? Rush? O’Reilly? Coulter? Where in the heck does this “bongo” meme come from? Do they have them confused with conga drums? Or is it that they don’t actually know anybody to the left of Cal Coolidge?

Wierd.

[/aside]

[elucidator]

@manhattan

Thank you for your perceptive comments. How the fuck that’s not an insult I’ll never know, but there you go…

All kidding aside, Manny, do you really consider yourself a paragon of polite discourse? Do you imagine that you have treated me respectfully and are the innocent victim of unwarranted sarcasm? Really?

…Your comments are given all the consideration due to someone who opposed the invasion of Afghanistan. None. Go bang bongos somewhere and get the fuck out of the way of history.

Indeed I did, and stand by that opposition. But not all my opinions have the same weight. I thought it a bad idea, but only that. In comparison, the invasion of Iraq was a VERY bad idea.

It followed what has become a pattern. We invaded Afghanistan to git ObL. Then we had to git the Taliban to git ObL. Somehow, by some sleight of mind, that became that real goal, so that when the Taliban is gone and a perfectly decent fellow installed as mayor of Kabul, victory is declared. You are aware, I’m sure, of recent news as to the relative happiness and well-being of the Afghani people? Perhaps you can tell me why I should have been willing to sacrifice some mother’s son for this tawdry “victory”?

As well, I have to wonder if you have adopted the Marxist delusion of history as a force, with a determinable direction? Surely not?

And finally, really, what is with you guys and bongos?

[Nietzsche]

@manhattan

A nuclear-armed Iraq under the mullahs will be much much more difficult to reform, whether from the inside or the outside.

And you base this on what? Do the mullahs have some proven track record of using weapons on their own masses like Saddam Hussein? How does their having nuclear weapons limit internal reforms which have been taking place for almost a decade now?

There are those who say “why should’t Iraq be nuclear?” Here’s what I’m telling you. Under the mullahs, Iran will never, ever be nuclear. We will prevent that by diplomacy, by sanction or if necessary by force of arms. It’s just not going to happen. If the European counter to that is “OK, that’s right. But a future free Iran might want to join the nuclear club and they shouldn’t have any more blocks put up than were put up in front of such countries as India” then I think that helps the cause of reform. I certainly welcome other ideas in the context of the current Iran under the mullahs never, ever becoming a nuclear state. Because, again, it’s just not going to happen.

Perhaps. I don’t deny Iran will not posses nuclear weapons. But I don’t think this will change regardless of whether Iran is ruled by mullahs or a devout atheist. They have signed an international treaty which bars them from ever having such weapons. Promises from Europe, America, or anyone else for acquiescence today for a “cheeseburger next Tuesday” isn’t fooling the Iranians.

Which of the things I suggested is contrary to the values or proposed policies of the left? Debt forgiveness?

I think I see the problem. Yes, many of the things you suggested do coincide with ideologies held by many on the left. That’s not where the point of contention lays. What you’ve done and how you’ve gone about doing it is the problem. So I’m still not sure why the left should abandon those concerns and quietly get in line behind policies and actions they rightly opposed from the get go. I understand that many who support this nightmare justify their actions by using such trite clichés as “the ends justify the means” or that it’s a “performance” issue. But to others who see things more clearly and use a bit more logic rather than clichés, there are concerns which have been proven right and are continuing to get bigger.

I guess I’ll concede that my message was not meant for those on the left who oppose democracy. But those people are cordially invited to go bang bongos somewhere and get the fuck out of the way of history.

Oh, that’s very clever. So since some folks understand complexities and recognize problems conveniently overlooked by those profiting massively from recent actions, they are “in the way” and “oppose democracy.” Right. That Frank Luntz style marketing and phrasing (read: bullshit spinning) may work with the home crowd, but not with everyone. In other words, peddle that horseshit elsewhere, the left ain’t buying any today.

elucidator:
loans him an extra set of bongos Come on… no true lefty is every without bongos. Didn’t you get the memo?

[Evil_One]

@elucidator

And finally, really, what is with you guys and bongos?

Allow me. I may be wrong, but I think the bongo reference is meant to bring to mind a bunch of idealistic hippies playing bongos around a fire while quoting bad original poetry between choruses of “Give Peace A Chance”.

It is a way to call someone unrealistically idealistic and disconnected from pragmatic reality.

Of course I could be wrong.

[BrainGlutton]

@Evil One

Allow me. I may be wrong, but I think the bongo reference is meant to bring to mind a bunch of idealistic hippies playing bongos around a fire while quoting bad original poetry between choruses of “Give Peace A Chance”.

For some reason, I was thinking of 1950s beatniks.

[elucidator]

So it was all about bringing freedom and democracy to the ME. Oh, sure there was some casual mention about WMD, here and there. Offhanded references to “smoking guns in the shape of mushroom clouds”, just casual stuff. Boy, sure is a good thing we have such freedom loving allies like Pakistan and Kuwait, huh? I mean, Pakistan is at the very front line of military dictatorships, when it comes to freedom and democracy. And that nuclear Amway sale they were conducting? Heck, that’s just good ol’ entepreneurship, can’t get more American than that!

And the Iraqi people just love us half to death! They crave the chance to fling thier arms around us and smother us with kisses, offer us their daughters, fling bouquets at us. OK, so a few of them got killed, but heck, thats the way it goes, can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs, and shooting the chickens, and burning down the hen house. Oh, all right, there’s no omelette, but there will be, and besides, Saddam couldn’t cook anyway!

Amazing. They dip the bucket into the septic tank, serve it to you as brown kool-aid, and you stand there and swear it’s root beer. And years from now, after it all turns to crap, you’ll find some way to blame it on us. “Yeah, well, we would have won in Viet Nam, but the liberals tied our hands.” Probably even find a way to work Jane Fonda into it, somehow. Deja voodoo all over again.

Blind, deaf, dumb, and deranged. And running the country. Lord help us.

[Evil_One]

@elucidator

Blind, deaf, dumb, and deranged. And running the country. Lord help us.

Many people, including myself, feel the same way about people that believe as you do, elucidator. Except for the “running the country” part, of course.

[Sevastopol]

Inconveniently for that belief however, Elucidator has simple fact on his side while you Evil One have blind faith in a proven liar and a love of temper tantrums conducted on an international scale.

[pantom]

@Sam Stone

elucidator said:

• If you had your way, almost certainly Libya would still be in the WMD game. We wouldn’t have known about AQ Khan and the nuclear materials he was selling.

This one’s too stupid to let slide, in a post with remarkably stiff competition, I might add.
Note, please, that Pakistan is an ally in the TWAT, that there is precisely a snowball’s chance in Hell that our intelligence didn’t know about AQ Khan, and that doubting this is, I don’t know, remarkably naive, to put it mildly. Note that Khan hasn’t been punished for his alleged transgressions, even though he is arguably the most prolific spreader of nuclear technology to rogue states that ever existed.
So much for the idea that we even care about WMDs. You guys really need to buy a clue: democracy, WMDs, all that stuff is just cover. Domination of the ME and its energy supplies is what it’s all about. The public stuff is excuses, nothing more.

[Well]

@pantom

Domination of the ME and its energy supplies is what it’s all about. The public stuff is excuses, nothing more.

What is this montra? All I hear is we did it for oil. I need some splaining on how we did this for oil. Where are the profits? Any Saddam appologist out there have a linky that shows how the US is raking in the dough from all this mideast oil? Didn’t we limit what we bought from Saddam even when he was selling it cheap at half price? Anybody got a demonstrable clue in hell how it could be we did it for the oil? It may look neat on a sign and sound good in a rhyme, but Where is all this damn oil we are supposed to be getting? And I better see more than 100 billion dollars worth already in some secret stockpile.

[squeegee]

@Well

What is this montra? All I hear is we did it for oil. I need some splaining on how we did this for oil. Where are the profits? Any Saddam appologist out there have a linky that shows how the US is raking in the dough from all this mideast oil?

Well, nobody said the plan actually made sense, or worked or anything.

[elucidator]

Freedom is on the lurch. So where are all the grateful Iraqis, eager to heap praise upon the beloved Americans? Where are the massive demonstrations of support, the vast throngs carrying signs and placards: “Gosh, We Sure Love America and George W. Bush!! Yessirree, Bob, Love 'Em to Pieces…”

In this recent elections, which political faction was it, out of more than a hundred political parties, which represents the pro-American faction? The Communists fielded candidates, didn’t they? So who was the “Let’s Be Just Like Our Beloved Americans!” party?

Were they intimidated by the dreaded Baathist Deadheads…deadenders, excuse…? But wait, weren’t we just hearing about how the election was a bold display of courage and defiance on the part of the Iraqi people? So if they were courageous enough to defy the insurgency in the first place, why wouldn’t they be courageous enough to express thier nearly universal love and approval of American policy, their gushing gratitude at thier liberation?

I kinda think that if there were a distinctly pro-American party, the Bushiviks would probably have mentioned it, don’t you? And if they were too modest to flaunt thier widespread approval, wouldn’t some fair and balanced media outlet have done it for them? Someone like, oh, maybe, Faux News?

“I’m Geraldo Rivera, reporting live from the headquarters of the Hooray for the Americans Islamist Party, where the enthusiasm is infectious…”

Must have been the Shite party, yes, that must be it. That massive turnout for thier platform was really a landslide of approval and gratitude for America, yes, that’s the ticket! They just didn’t want to say so directly, didn’t want to embarass the shy and modest Republicans, so loathe they are to be the focus of so much affection. That Sistani guy, he would be wearing one of those American flag pins so much favored by the truly patriotic American, but it doesn’t go well with basic black.

I am out on a limb here, guys. Saw away. Rush right in here with cites showing the existence of a pro-American party, out the more than a hundred, there must be at least one, yes? Assuming what you say is true, and the Iraqis are just overflowing with loving gratitude for thier liberation? So who were they, and how did they do?

I await your response with “the calm confidence of a Methodist with four aces.”