# The democrats abandoning gun control will not help them win the votes of rural whites **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504 "2019-02-13T22:40:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/41 "2019-02-16T02:50:09Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > IMO, the only thing that’ll win over high school educated white men is rebuilding the union movement. > > I recall reading an article years ago about John Kerry’s loss in the 2004 election. It mentioned how with rural white men he did terrible, unless those men were in a union. If those men weren’t in a union, he lost them by 30-40 points or so. If they were, Kerry won them by 15-20 points. > > So rebuilding the union movement, especially in vocations where high school educated whites work, could be an important part of winning over that demographic. Good luck with that. This isn’t the immediate post WWII era when there were no other options. And why should the Dems pander to a demographic they hold in contempt? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/42 "2019-02-16T03:59:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And why should the Dems pander to a demographic they hold in contempt? Have you been listening to Hannity again? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/43 "2019-02-16T04:03:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They banned handguns in DC, SF and Chicago. Those three had such strict gun control laws that it led to Heller. I’m tired of folks bringing up Chicago. They are so close to Indiana with lax gun laws that the Chicago laws aren’t even a factor. We don’t know if gun controls laws would work. We only know that localized ones don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/44 "2019-02-16T04:43:10Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I’m tired of folks bringing up Chicago. They are so close to Indiana with lax gun laws that the Chicago laws aren’t even a factor. We don’t know if gun controls laws would work. We only know that localized ones don’t. Sure, that’s always the excuse. "Those gun laws didnt work, so we need more, stronger gun laws over larger jurisdictions. " :rolleyes: Maybe- gun laws don’t work. Well, how about all of California? Strongest gun laws in the nation, still high violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/45 "2019-02-16T04:51:43Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I’m tired of folks bringing up Chicago. They are so close to Indiana with lax gun laws that the Chicago laws aren’t even a factor. We don’t know if gun controls laws would work. We only know that localized ones don’t. Why doesn’t Indiana have Chicago-level violent crime? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/46 "2019-02-18T05:46:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Why doesn’t Indiana have Chicago-level violent crime? Because _all else equal_, places with higher densities of population do have higher crime rates. This is why state and municipal gun restrictions are generally so ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/47 "2019-02-18T16:36:51Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I’m tired of folks bringing up Chicago. They are so close to Indiana with lax gun laws that the Chicago laws aren’t even a factor. We don’t know if gun controls laws would work. We only know that localized ones don’t. The same Federal laws apply between buyers and sellers from Ill and IN. They simply choose to break the laws. I’m tired of having to bring this up every time. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/48 "2019-02-18T21:55:44Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Oh piff. Gun control has never led to a reduction in crime in the US because it’s never been done. Pull my other leg. I don’t think you are going to appeal to a lot of gun owners by saying “ok, gun control hasn’t reduced crime, but you ain’t seen nothing yet”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/49 "2019-02-19T00:46:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, that’s always the excuse. "Those gun laws didnt work, so we need more, stronger gun laws over larger jurisdictions. " :rolleyes: Maybe- gun laws don’t work. > > Well, how about all of California? Strongest gun laws in the nation, still high violent crime. On a per capita basis, California has a pretty low number of firearms related deaths. In fact, there is a [correlation between restrictions and low firearms deaths](https://public.tableau.com/profile/cnbc5283#!/vizhome/GUNDEATHSvREGS/Dashboard2) across the country. Sure, not all firearms deaths are the result of violent crimes, as many are simply accidents, but dead is dead, and the more restrictions the fewer dead. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/50 "2019-02-19T02:57:54Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > . . . guns help them feel safe in a world full of scary out-groups (latino immigrant street criminals. Black urban street criminals. Foreign muslim terrorists. Liberal government. etc). . . . I think it’s mostly fear of the black man coming to ravish their sisters and daughters. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/51 "2019-02-19T03:17:14Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > On a per capita basis, California has a pretty low number of firearms related deaths. In fact, there is a [correlation between restrictions and low firearms deaths](https://public.tableau.com/profile/cnbc5283#!/vizhome/GUNDEATHSvREGS/Dashboard2) across the country. Sure, not all firearms deaths are the result of violent crimes, as many are simply accidents, but dead is dead, and the more restrictions the fewer dead. California comes in at 27th for murder rates, right smack dab in the middle, and with the very highest gun laws in the nation. > **[List of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_rate)** > > This is a list of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate. It is typically expressed in units of deaths per 100,000 individuals per year; a homicide rate of 4 in a population of 100,000 would mean 4 murders a year, or 0.004% out of the total. The data is from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The reasons for the different results can be confusing. From the Reason Foundation: "While the FBI data relies on reports by law enf FBI... New jersey had the second toughest gun laws- and ranks just about there with CA. New Hampshire has some of the weakest guns laws, but has the very lowest homicide rate. ND has weak gun laws, and the 2nd lowest murder rate, Maine has the 3rd lowest murder rate and very weak gun laws. Maryland has the 4th highest murder rate, but tough gun laws. Yeah, you know those “gun deaths” stats? They are bogus, because most of them are suicides. 2/3rds of them, in fact. And as you said, quite a few are accidents. Hunting accidents in states with lots of hunting and weak gun laws. Very sad, but has nothing to do with gun control, because very few want to ban deer rifles. Don’t compare fucking “gun deaths” compare _murder rates_ (for which there are better records and stats anyway). Comparing murder rates shows very little correlation. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/52 "2019-02-19T03:22:54Z")
"Don’t compare fucking “gun deaths” compare murder rates (for which there are better records and stats anyway). " Yeah, lessening the likelihood of suicide (and accidents) is something no government has business doing. ---
**Author:** ![bubba001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f17d59/32.png) [@bubba001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bubba001)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/53 "2019-02-19T04:09:02Z")
I live in a very rural area, very conservative. I have lived here for over 30 years. It always goes republican. When Obama was running in 2008, I had one of my neighbors ask me “Are you voting for that nxxxxx ? I was surprised, no hello, how are ya, just a very angry guy. I see him once a week, he is quite pleasant now. Big time Trump guy. He has a lot of company out here. They aren’t ever going to vote Democratic. Their fathers may have been Democrats, but these folks will never follow that path. Guns are a issue for many, they are convinced that the Democrats are going to take their guns. Some of these guys have freaking Arsenal’s, but they are harmless, imho. The women are slightly different. Some of the women will switch, especially if there is a woman as a candidate. We just elected a Democratic, Elisa Slotkin, over a republican. I think that the female thing is pretty potent. And Slotkin is very qualified, and ran a good campaign. I agree that most of these folks are afraid of something. I’ve had a lot of conversations with folks that end up talking about the old days. In some cases, they are too young to have experienced it. A lot of us, me included, got hammered by the downsizing of the auto industry. There is a lot of resentment, especially against unions and the Democratic Party, they get the blame, deserved or not. I was told one that there were 3 things that motivated a man, Fear, Greed, and Jealousy. I think these folks score high on all 3. Have a good one! ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/54 "2019-02-19T04:15:44Z")
> [@bubba001](#): > > . . . > > The women are slightly different. Some of the women will switch, especially if there is a woman as a candidate. We just elected a Democratic, Elisa Slotkin, over a republican. I think that the female thing is pretty potent. And Slotkin is very qualified, and ran a good campaign. Quickly looking through her [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elissa_Slotkin), I’d say Slotkin isn’t so much ‘qualified’ as credible. Hard to take issue with ex-CIA. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/55 "2019-02-19T04:18:24Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > "Don’t compare fucking “gun deaths” compare murder rates (for which there are better records and stats anyway). " > > Yeah, lessening the likelihood of suicide (and accidents) is something no government has business doing. Suicide rates tend to be much less correlated with gun ownership internationally. Japan and South Korea have near-zero private gun ownership but have some of the highest suicide rates in the world. ---
**Author:** ![bubba001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f17d59/32.png) [@bubba001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bubba001)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/56 "2019-02-19T04:21:09Z")
A couple of other things come to mind. One is that these people don’t trust any mainstream news outlet. So anything that is negative about a republican is “fake news”. They are never going to believe that Trump is guilty of anything. Trump could conduct human sacrifices in the rose garden, and they will stick with him. Another thing is that these folks feel that they and their kids have been cheated. So they are setting up the next generation to feel victimized. The next generation of republicans looks a lot like present one. I’d also think that people who homeschool their kids tend to be republicans. No data, just my experience. ---
**Author:** ![bubba001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f17d59/32.png) [@bubba001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bubba001)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/57 "2019-02-19T04:22:58Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Quickly looking through her [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elissa_Slotkin), I’d say Slotkin isn’t so much ‘qualified’ as credible. Hard to take issue with ex-CIA. A lot of republicans sure would. After all, their leader doesn’t trust the intelligence community. ---
**Author:** ![bubba001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f17d59/32.png) [@bubba001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bubba001)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/58 "2019-02-19T04:42:11Z")
I’m a pretty talkative guy, I belong to several groups, I help my wife out with her business, she has run a service business here for over 30 years. Due to that, we try not to talk politics with folks. I try to listen, and some people I avoid, it just isn’t worth my time to listen to the crazy stuff. I feel that I have been very fortunate in life, and try to be positive toward everyone. One guy I used to work with had his job saved by the union several times. He and his wife had severe alcohol and drug use issues. He was unconscious at work many times. For awhile, I was driving him back and forth to work, as he couldn’t drive due to an injury suffered while drinking. He didn’t see his wife for a couple of years, she disappeared into the drug world. When she came back, she was in a detox program, for heroin addiction. They had 2 kids, that seem to be ok. But now she quotes bible verses to us, and he rants about unions and nnnnnnns. I try to be pleasant, but limit my contact with them. I don’t get it, but that’s their way. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/59 "2019-02-19T05:06:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Don’t compare fucking “gun deaths” compare _murder rates_ (for which there are better records and stats anyway). [Was this a murder?](https://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-news/mom-boyfriend-charged-death-year-old-jackson-boy/iVRtukcON9jCJMi4CHpcCK/) [This?](https://patch.com/georgia/acworth/no-charges-expected-against-dad-toddlers-accidental-shooting-0) [Perhaps this?](https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article214504689.html) [But surely this must be, no?](https://www.businessinsider.com/virginia-child-mistakes-gun-for-toy-accidentally-kills-brother-2018-5) Again, dead is dead, whether by murder, suicide or accident. If I show a correlation between firearm deaths and gun restrictions, but you claim that the murder rates don’t agree, then that simply means that the correlation is even stronger for suicide and accidents. Cool, I can live with reducing those even if it had no effect on murder. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504/60 "2019-02-19T05:58:29Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > "Don’t compare fucking “gun deaths” compare murder rates (for which there are better records and stats anyway). " > > Yeah, lessening the likelihood of suicide (and accidents) is something no government has business doing. Sure, maybe. But it seems to have little interest in helping _anyone_ with mental health issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-abandoning-gun-control-will-not-help-them-win-the-votes-of-rural-whites/829504.md?page=4)