# The democrats are not playing 11 dimensional chess. They are incompetent. There is a difference **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145 "2012-10-08T22:32:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/41 "2012-10-09T20:57:29Z")
I don’t get why Obama being a mediocre debater has to be either incompetence or a super-strategy. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/42 "2012-10-09T21:18:59Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Romney is an unusually intelligent, capable man, and a worthy opponent. Romney, in the context of politics and governing, is none of those things. He’s just about the last guy even the conservatives want representing them. He’s just a placeholder for not-Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/43 "2012-10-09T21:26:41Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > So you’re directly quoting _Ta-Nahesi Coates’_ words to prove _Obama’s_ mindset? Can you explain how that works? > > Would I be correct in rebutting by using an Andrew Sullivan article to show that you’re hysterical? It’s proof that I agree with TNC. That’s about it. The press reports that led us to reach this conclusion may or may not be accurate. If the reports are true, they’re damning. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/44 "2012-10-09T21:42:07Z")
I would take the “Obama is an incompetent loser and an embarrassment to the party because he lost the debate!” side more seriously if their actual critique of him was based on something more substantitve than his distracted demeanor or his failure to hurl the right amount of zingers _during one solitary debate_. It’s sad that this even needs to be said, but the man was hired to run the country. He wasn’t hired to be an undefeated debate champion. Presumably, he was entrusted with his job because his employers (us) thought he was capable of making important decisions that have bearing on our federal treasury and our national security. So he failed to turn out a dazzling stage performance during one debate. You mean to tell me this overrides his capture of Osama Bin Laden, his ending of 2 wars, his policies that have moved us off the brink of a Great Depression, his successfully reforming healthcare, and his repeal of DODT? I’m a need you to realize how stupid it is, calling Obama incompetent because he didn’t live up to your debate expectations. He’s a politician just all the rest, but he’s also human and he can’t be perfect at everything. So you’re basically telling us that if he can’t kick ass at this one thing (debates), then he deserves to lose the presidency. Really? This sounds righteous and sensible to you? I guess that means the next time you have a job interview, regardless of your glowing references and the content of your resume, you’ll have no problem getting passed over for the position by someone who speaks impressively but outright lies about their experience and training. Chicken Little has nothing on the SDMB right now. So much doom and gloom squawking over political theater that only influences votes from the lowest common denominator anyway. It’s not the democratic party that is embarrassing itself right now. It’s the Democratic voters who are falling over themselves to slam Obama and deride him as politically inept, right when he needs as much positive press as he can get. If his so-called supporters can’t even stand by him right now, why should anyone else? You’re just stabbing your own self in the foot with these hysterics. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/45 "2012-10-09T22:02:28Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t get why Obama being a mediocre debater has to be either incompetence or a super-strategy. Just so. He has a campaign strategy which he stuck to in this debate, and he has several idiosyncrasies to his speech which tend to detract from his presentation. Those speech problems were all in evidence during the debate; this is indicative of neither a lack of preparation nor of a deviation from strategy. (Note the difference between “strategy” and “tactics”; debate techniques fall under the latter.) I’m pretty sure that if Obama had delivered the exact same responses firmly, without hesitation and with projected confidence we’d all be saying the debate was a standup draw. Regardless, the poor performance was just a poor execution of debate skills from a generally capable speaker. An off night, not a lack of resolve or a slide into failure. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/46 "2012-10-09T22:31:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Chicken Little has nothing on the SDMB right now. So much doom and gloom squawking over political theater that only influences votes from the lowest common denominator anyway. It’s not the democratic party that is embarrassing itself right now. It’s the Democratic voters who are falling over themselves to slam Obama and deride him as politically inept, right when he needs as much positive press as he can get. If his so-called supporters can’t even stand by him right now, why should anyone else? You’re just stabbing your own self in the foot with these hysterics. Exactly. There seems to be a huge difference between the pundits on Obama’s side and the ones on Romney’s side. Can you imagine, say, Jennifer Rubin (or, for a SDMB example, **adaher** ) going into the sort of hysterics that Andrew Sullivan has in the past couple days? She knows how to be a campaign shill. Mitt Romney could be going down like Mondale in '84, and Jennifer Rubin would be there the day before the election to explain how it’s just a flesh wound. Two days of bad polling for Obama, and everyone on his side’s all “how could he let this happen.” Conservatives love thinking that Obama’s supporters think of him as the Messiah, but if that’s true, most of them seem to think of their own role as Simon Peter after the Last Supper. Above, I mentioned that I think Obama despises Romney, and that I think this is because Romney is a despicable human being. I think the guy’s got Nixon’s talent for being so easy to hate that it throws his opponents off their game. [Today’s example](http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/josh-romney-dad-learned-how-to-debate-obstinate--1): > [@](#): > > “I don’t know if you guys saw the debate last week,” Josh Romney said, as the crowd cheered and applauded. "I take a lot of pride in that, because — I don’t know if you noticed, but I was — me and my brothers were responsible for my dad doing so well. We were the ones, as kids, that kept saying the same thing over and over. And we’d say the same lie over and over. And my dad learned then, not to believe it. While we didn’t go to any of the formal debate preparation, we did the real hard stuff. > > “So as a father, he learned how to debate an obstinate child. We had a lot of fun, we had a lot of fun watching the debate.” The guy who can get through [27 myths in 38 minutes](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/10/04/958801/at-last-nights-debate-romney-told-27-myths-in-38-minutes/) has his son out on the campaign trail calling the President an “obstinate child” that needs to be set straight on the facts. I submit to Chris Matthews that if he had to put up with that sort of shit he wouldn’t counter it with a spirited defense of liberalism, but with a lot of shouting. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/47 "2012-10-10T04:49:00Z")
Just posting to clarify that I’m not agreeing with the incompetence angle just that I think Democratic candidates need to blow Republicans out because a squeaker allows for shenanigans at the polls. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/48 "2012-10-10T05:35:13Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Please, give me lines you would have wanted him to say and I’ll tell you how the post debate narrative goes. “Governor Romney has taken more positions than the Kama Sutra. It’s like watching a chameleon on a plaid couch.” ---
**Author:** ![Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mentor_and_Liar)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/49 "2012-10-10T15:39:09Z")
Obama got sandbagged. In their first moment of brilliance, the Romney campaign spent weeks giving the Obama campaign a false playbook. Romney and his spokespeople, quite loudly and frequently, shouted that they believed they were at a disadvantage because the President would lie his ass off and that their only strategy was to memorize hard cold facts. Obama confidently stepped on stage feeling his positions were irrefutable and divested his arsenal of anything even slightly nuanced. I think Obama was at home before he realized that he’d been played and that Romney had completely flipped the playbook against him. It’s a three round bout and Obama and his campaign are pretty smart, the next two will be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/50 "2012-10-10T15:52:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I would take the “Obama is an incompetent loser and an embarrassment to the party because he lost the debate!” side more seriously if their actual critique of him was based on something more substantitve than his distracted demeanor or his failure to hurl the right amount of zingers _during one solitary debate_. I don’t think anyone is saying that (except you of course). The debate performance was horrible. The polls have shifted dramatically. The election is in jeopardy. [quote] You mean to tell me this overrides his capture of Osama Bin Laden, his ending of 2 wars, his policies that have moved us off the brink of a Great Depression, his successfully reforming healthcare, and his repeal of DODT? Those things barely edge out an 8% unemployment rate and a very unpopular Obamacare. > [@](#): > > he can’t kick ass at this one thing (debates), then he deserves to lose the presidency. Really? This sounds righteous and sensible to you? I don’t think so but tehre are enough epople who do that it can swing teh election. You can stand on your “this is what SHOULD be important” soapbox as much as you want, its not what IS important in winnning elections. > [@](#): > > Chicken Little has nothing on the SDMB right now. Have you seen the polls? Obama is not running with a robust lead. His lead is ephemeral. All you need is the conservative right to get a teensy weensy bit excited about Romney and we could lose this thing. Obama must do better. > [@](#): > > If his so-called supporters can’t even stand by him right now, why should anyone else? You’re just stabbing your own self in the foot with these hysterics. There’s a real easy weay to fix that. Kick some ass at the next debate. > [@xenophon41](#): > > I’m pretty sure that if Obama had delivered the exact same responses firmly, without hesitation and with projected confidence we’d all be saying the debate was a standup draw. Regardless, the poor performance was just a poor execution of debate skills from a generally capable speaker. An off night, not a lack of resolve or a slide into failure. Exactly. Romney didn’t win that debate. Obama lost it. > [@waterj2](#): > > Exactly. There seems to be a huge difference between the pundits on Obama’s side and the ones on Romney’s side Reminds me of something I saw the other day. Conservatives respond to bad poll numbers with anger and conspiracy theories. Democrats respond to bad poll numbers with thoughts of suicide. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/51 "2012-10-10T16:11:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Those things barely edge out an 8% unemployment rate and a very unpopular Obamacare. The ACA is unpopular simply because there is so much misinformation and downright lying. Asked about each of its individual provisions people support them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/52 "2012-10-10T16:42:19Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > The ACA is unpopular simply because there is so much misinformation and downright lying. Asked about each of its individual provisions people support them. I thought it was _“each of its individual provisions, except the mandate”_. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/53 "2012-10-11T02:39:52Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So please stop trying to polish the turd by pretending this disorganization and ineptitude is part of some long term strategy that we don’t understand. You are correct - Obama fucked up the debate and Romney performed surprisingly well. But I don’t there’s anything disorganized or inept about Obama. Let’s wait and see how the next debate goes shall we? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/54 "2012-10-11T03:18:21Z")
If Obama’s naievity against Romney’s tricksiness is an excuse, how would he fare against Vladimir Putin or Hu Jintao? Once they’re reminded of what a dangerous world it is, Americans don’t like to think of their leaders as babes in the wood. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/55 "2012-10-11T03:24:12Z")
Yes, it’s obvious that this mixed race black man, the dude with a foreign sounding name who won the Democratic nomination over the Clinton machine and beat a respected war hero to become President of the United States is so very very naive about politics. Babe in the woods. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/56 "2012-10-11T03:46:49Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Yes, it’s obvious that this mixed race black man, the dude with a foreign sounding name who won the Democratic nomination over the Clinton machine and beat a respected war hero to become President of the United States is so very very naive about politics. Babe in the woods. He can barely feed himself. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/57 "2012-10-11T04:01:08Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Yes, it’s obvious that this mixed race black man, the dude with a foreign sounding name who won the Democratic nomination over the Clinton machine and beat a respected war hero to become President of the United States is so very very naive about politics. Babe in the woods. Contrast with: > [@Lobohan](#): > > The trouble is Obama, being a decent guy, literally didn’t think that Romney would outright lie to the faces of 60 million people. > > I think he planned on debating the shitheel Romney from the campaign, not the lying Kewpie Doll version that showed up to the debate. If true, how is this not naive? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/58 "2012-10-11T04:37:49Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Contrast with: > > If true, how is this not naive? It’s not naive to assume someone won’t lie more on TV than any former presidential candidate. He said red is blue and up is left. The fact is that Romney is one of the biggest lying cumstains to ever run for the office. His very first ad in the general literally took Obama quoting McCain and pretended that Obama said it as his own words. Romney isn’t spinning, he’s standing there with his dick in your wife and saying, “I’m not fucking your wife.” ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/59 "2012-10-11T14:34:27Z")
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2215173/Obama-believed-beaten-Romney-Denver-debate-ignoring-advice-aides.html](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2215173/Obama-believed-beaten-Romney-Denver-debate-ignoring-advice-aides.html) > [@](#): > > Obama believes he’d got the better of Romney as he walked off stage to the dismay of his aides, according to a Democrat close to the campaign > The President failed to prepare properly, opting instead to visit the Hoover Dam the day before the showdown > Democrat claims he was so disdainful of Romney that he didn’t think he needed to even engage with him > Had one-liners on 47% prepared but chose not to use them Hmm. Hack journalism or solid insider info? If this is true, Obama deserves the drubbing he’s headed for. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145/60 "2012-10-11T17:31:57Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > And he’ll never use the words “lie” or “liar” in the 2nd or 3rd debates either. Because of some very basic reasons (11 dimensional chess not required): > > a) the nation’s first African American POTUS plays right into Rovian strategy if he shows anger, period; b) any of the expected attacks -the 47% video, Bain Capital, tax records, etc.- can be fairly easily countered in a debate format by any sufficiently bold prevaricator, like smiling liar Mitt Romney; c) Obama already wins with most of the electorate on substance, so it makes no sense to shift focus from his policies over to Mitt’s, because d) Romney has demonstrated his ability to earnestly claim the most moderate and sensible goals and results for the most extreme or inane policy positions, which is debate format gold. I agree most with this. Some super complex plan just stinks of trying to explain why he didn’t really lose because it’s part of a bigger plan. Occam’s Razor is reason enough to think that that idea is silly. Obama isn’t perfect, he makes mistakes, why is that more likely than he just performed poorly? I think, like sort of alluded to here, that Obama prepared, but perhaps prepared for a bit of a different opponent. I also think he realized that attacking Romney on the 47% or other obvious points had little benefit for him, since they’ve been in ads for weeks, but chances are that Romney was prepared for it and very well may have turned it around on him. So, with little to gain, possibly a lot to lose, and with a comfortable lead, I think it’s a perfectly fine stategy to go into a political version of prevent defense, not take the obvious bait and continue to focus on his own major talking points. Where I think the panic comes in, as often happens with a prevent defense, is that it’s not intended to stop any scoring at all, that’s what a normal defense is for, it’s intended to heavily favor against the big plays, and the opponent may still score, it’ll just take longer and possibly be fewer overall points. I still think Obama messed up some, he may have been tired, may have no been fully prepared for the Romney he saw, and ended up losing worse than he expected. But he probably entered intending to focus on keeping the supporters he has and not worrying a whole lot about the undecided votes, so it wasn’t a huge deal that he pretty much only lost any potential votes among them. It’s still his election to lose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-democrats-are-not-playing-11-dimensional-chess-they-are-incompetent-there-is-a-difference/637145.md?page=4)