# The demographic death of Europe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706 "2006-01-06T04:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/41 "2006-01-07T00:04:11Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > The IRS ? It worked on Al Capone IIRC. If you (collectively) can’t catch the thousands, perhaps millions, of employers paying wages to illegal immigrants, how will the IRS suddely have the magical ability to find every cash payment in the country? Al Capone was just one bloke. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/42 "2006-01-07T00:08:46Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > If you (collectively) can’t catch the thousands, perhaps millions, of employers paying wages to illegal immigrants, how will the IRS suddely have the magical ability to find every cash payment in the country? Al Capone was just one bloke. What makes you think anyone is seriously trying ? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/43 "2006-01-07T09:08:19Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Predictably, people on the Left tend to scoff at Steyn’s notions, and people on the Right tend to (cautiously) embrace them. > > But really, it’s the Left that should be most concerned. > > Ask yourself how long the libertarian utopia of the Netherlands will last once Muslims are the majority (and they will be, soon)? If you believe in gay marriage, in legalized drugs and prostitution, how long do you think a government dominated by Muslims would let those things continue? > > You think Muslims who emigrate to Europe will eventually give up their old values and embrace European ones? Perhaps they will. But how sure are you? This is the most sane post I’ve read so far. I am a ‘lefty’. I believe in gay marriage, legalized drugs and prostitution, not to mention equal opportunities for women. Oh, and I’m an atheïst. I KNOW our Muslims already are threatening our homosexuals. I know there’s a blowing prohibition in Amsterdam as of last month. Thanks to heavily lobbying from muslim organisations. I know our women are called ‘whore’ when wearing mini-skirts. Muslim girls are mutilated by cutting off their clitoris. Women are being killed to protect the family ‘honor’ Yes, I KNOW these last two are not solely muslim atrocities, but they are done by muslims RIGHT HERE. RIGHT NOW. So I’m just as baffled as you are as to WHY the ‘Left’ is embracing Islam. It makes no sense at all. **Dead Badger** wrote: > [@](#): > > _His further assumption, that immigration will continue unabated and that it will continue to be (or even is now) primarily observant Muslims is unsound_ It is not. Muslim male still get their brides out of Morocco or Turkey and muslim women do the same. There are nearly no mixed marriages. And when there is, the partner becomes a muslim[a]. & > [@](#): > > I contend that it is fallacious to simply lump “Muslims” from such incredibly diverse places together in one homogenous lump, for the purpose of declaring it something new. What common purpose does an Albanian Muslim have with a Somali Muslim? The Koran? The Islam? The muslim terrorists ‘hofstad group’ here, in the Netherlands, consists of [among others] Moroccan/Dutch and the son of an Turkish/American diplomat. Theo van Gogh’s murderer is a Moroccan/Dutch. The muslims who blew up your trains were Pakistani/English, the Madrid bombers were Morrocan/Spanish. The French rioteers who [besides burned cars] killed an invalid woman and a 63 year old man, were Algerian/French and Moroccan/French All grew up in the country they attacked. All are muslims. And I’m glad you didn’t accuse the OP of xenophobia, because we all know which religion has the most xenophobes, homophobes, anti-semites and who dicriminates towards women, right? I wish some of you get this into your thick skull: I’m certainly not a xenophobe. Without going into too much details; I’ve had boyfriends from [amongst other countries/colors] Surinam [who was beautifully black] and from Indonesia [who was - as so delightfully named in this thread -] ‘brown’. \*\* I’m having problems with a very intolerant religion\*\*. Okay? **Sal Ammoniac** wrote > [@](#): > > _Europe will have to deal – just as it always has._ Yes. But I’m afraid it’s too late. Oh, I have ONE son. Ought I to have had 23? [ **GorillaMan & Der Trihs**. Surely the subject about _illegal_ immigrants is an entire different one? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/44 "2006-01-07T09:28:40Z")
> [@gum](#): > > **GorillaMan & Der Trihs**. Surely the subject about _illegal_ immigrants is an entire different one? I was speaking of immigrants who are willing to take jobs with lower pay/worse treatment/greater danger than the locals, legal or illegal. It was **GorillaMan** who brought the illegals up( without me actually noticing, I admit ). ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/45 "2006-01-07T10:10:26Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > I was speaking of immigrants who are willing to take jobs with lower pay/worse treatment/greater danger than the locals, legal or illegal. It was **GorillaMan** who brought the illegals up( without me actually noticing, I admit ). Okay then. 🙂 I still have to meet a _muslim_ immigrant of today who’s willing to take jobs with lower pay/worse treatment/greater danger than the locals. Au contraire, mon ami. It’s the other way around, these days. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/46 "2006-01-07T11:21:02Z")
> [@](#): > > or whenever they get around to finishing their Anger Management and Queer Studies degrees That’s right, bash the queers gratuitously, it always helps blow smoke in the public’s eyes. Even though you’ve just insulted your ideological mate, Pym Fortuyn. (did I spell that right?) ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/47 "2006-01-07T13:36:42Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Muslim girls are mutilated by cutting off their clitoris. > Women are being killed to protect the family ‘honor’ > Yes, I KNOW these last two are not solely muslim atrocities, but they are done by muslims RIGHT HERE. RIGHT NOW. You realise that FGM is primarily practised in Africa as a hangover from older traditions, right, and not as a result of Islam? I don’t suppose we’ll be getting any condemnations out of you regarding “Africans” as a group, so how come you feel so content to use it as a condemnation of a religion which doesn’t even stipulate such horrors? FGM is horrific, as are honour killings, but they are reasons to condemn isolated criminals, not an entire people. Now, I believe the Netherlands has somewhere between 1 and 1.5 million Muslims. I can find a couple of sites that tell me FGM has been “reported” in the Netherlands, but no actual instances of it. I believe, therefore, that it has indeed occurred, and that is surely something to be deplored; however, I’m having a hard time seeing it as such as scourge as to warrant blanket depradations of a worldwide religion, the _vast_ majority of whose adherents follow no such practice. The same goes for honour killings; certainly these are things to be singled out, prosecuted and stamped out. But you make out like they’re happening on street corners daily, with no evidence. > [@](#): > > The Koran? > The Islam? Way to miss the point. I guess, since you’re so convinced that nominal religion can so reliably be used to predict behaviour, that I can assume you’ll act just like, say, Myra Hindley. How could it be otherwise? You come from a predominantly Christian country. Yes, we all know how you “Christians” act. Me, too; just last week I was picketing gay weddings á la Fred Phelps; as a “Christian”, it’s what I like to do. Because, Lord knows, people worldwide can be assumed to act like the very worst of whatever group you can stuff them in to. It is the way of things. > [@](#): > > I wish some of you get this into your thick skull: > I’m certainly not a xenophobe… > **I’m having problems with a very intolerant religion**. Okay? You’re focusing unhealthily on one religion and blaming it for just about any perceived problem you can lay your hands on. I believe you when you say it’s not about colour. I see you got lots of people sticking up for you in a recent pit thread; I’m sure you’re a very nice person. But I have to say it seems you’re absolutely blinkered with respect to Islam. You observe the typical problems of immigration and poverty, see a common factor, and assume it is the cause. You go out of your way to associate anything bad you see with Islam, sometimes on the most tenuous of reasoning. You are, I’m afraid, xenophobic (which is not a synonym for racist, so it really doesn’t matter who you’ve dated). Whenever Muslims are mentioned (and frequently when they’re not), you come out and rant about how they’re ruining your country, and when challenged repeat these tawdry screeds with cliché upon cliché about arranged marriages and FGM. Now, I see, you’re complaining that they’re taking all the nice jobs, again without a hint of evidence; not even from one of those sites that breathlessly talks about global Jihad and secret service agents doing naughty things. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/48 "2006-01-07T14:03:06Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Oh, I have ONE son. > Ought I to have had 23? Well, you have to admit, it’s a little inconsistent to complain about the demographic death of your race and then expect _other people_ to do something about it. If not you, who? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/49 "2006-01-07T18:00:42Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > My bolding - how are you going to do that? In the United States, companies are already required to report certain information about their hires, including the number of people employed, wages, hours worked, and plenty of detailed information. They report to the IRS, the federal Labor Department, and the labor departments in each state. Enforcement is not difficult. The problem is that the Republicans have made the federal Labor Department. It knows exactly which companies routinely break the law, but lacks means of enforcement. Companies like WalMart and Haliburton routinely ignore labor law, since the punishments are slap-on-the-wrist. If we restored real means of enforcement, companies would smarten up and start obeying the law. As for Europe, my impression is that they already do a solid job of enforcing labor law. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/50 "2006-01-07T18:40:18Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Now, I believe the Netherlands has somewhere between 1 and 1.5 million Muslims. I can find a couple of sites that tell me FGM has been “reported” in the Netherlands, but no actual instances of it. It is certainly practiced among some of those of Somali descent in the Netherlands, which make up a small percentage of all Muslims in the country. FGM has never been practiced in either Turkey or Morocco, from which the majority hail. At any rate… > [@gum](#): > > But I’m afraid it’s too late. So I have to ask - what’s your solution, or at least modifying correction to this problem you perceive? - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/51 "2006-01-07T18:51:42Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > So I have to ask - what’s your solution, or at least modifying correction to this problem you perceive? Go back on a red meat diet? A little new conquest to get the blood stirring? Maybe some internal strife, perhaps a new pan-European conflict? I think the problem with Europe is that they have been good to long…and its killing them! ( 😉 ) Personally I don’t think this is a ‘problem’…unless the Europeans MAKE it a problem. Immigration and integration are the key for them to continue as they always have. It works for the US after all, why not Europe too? ‘They’ just need to figure out the optimal way to bring in immigrants and integrate them into their society. After all, the folks currently occupying ‘Europe’ originally swiped that land and displaced or obsorbed the native populations, so their is nothing sacred about ‘Frence’ folks having to live in France (for example)…no? 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/52 "2006-01-08T01:17:51Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Or muslim birthrates could drop precipitously as the muslim world follows the rest of the world into prosperity. > . If I’m not mistaken, it’s you, in a previous related thread, who had dug up figures showing that the birthrate in several muslim countries was indeed collapsing. Besides, these societies evolve culturally, and anyway second, third, etc… generation immigrants don’t keep the values of their grandfathers (in particular religious practice) . Immigrants from third world countries aren’t necessarily muslim, either. Currently, the country sending the largest number of immigrants to France is China, while the traditionnal immigration from north afica is much lower than it used to. Also, there’s no reason to assume that the shrinking population in European countries will be fully replaced by immigrants. Finally, second/third generation immigrants don’t have a very significantly higher birthrate. I’m sure sure Islam will beome more visible in western countries, and more accepted as a part of everyday life. I noticed some small but significant signs of it, during the last years in France. But Europe changed into a muslim, sharia-led society? I don’t buy it for the foreseable future (say, 40 years). Besides that, it’s just pointless to make predictions, too much things could happen and change. The OP cite refers to the end of the century, but for all we know, by this time the major world power could be the United Panarab Republic, where 42% of the population is atheist and 17% buddhist according to mind-reading based pools and where meat-eaters are persecuted. Or essentially anything else, including things that wouldn’t ever occur to us. Things change on the long term. A lot. Really a lot. And never as expected. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/53 "2006-01-08T01:49:50Z")
> [@gum](#): > > I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. > The standard of living amongst the extremist muslims _is_ high and will be high to support the next generation. The important word here being “extremist”. Andall your cite refers to members of terrorist networks, hardly representative of the muslim population. I mean, I sometimes wonder if you know actual, blood and flesh, muslims. There are plenty of them in my neighborhood. Generally, you’ll find them drinking a beer at the local cafe, not plotting the implementation of the Shariah. That would be first generation immigrants. Second generation? Bah… Most of them are as knowledgeable about Islam as your average catholic born frenchman is about catholicism. I mean, really not much. I’m sure many of them couldn’t even tell me where is the nearest mosque (actually, while writing this I remember the interview of members of a muslim organization who tried to help during the riots, and who were saying, dissapointed, essentially exactly that. That these young guys though muslims in name, were completely estranged to their supposed religion, and precisely didn’t even know there was a mosque in their “cité”). Yeah, yeah, I know. There are some traditionnalists, out there. Some. Several, at least. Some french people have been killed during the Hadj, following a hotel collaspe in Mecca, and they showed today on the evening news a gathering of their family and friends praying together. These are the true believers. Very threatening. I mean, they go to pilgrimages, they pray and all when their relative die… I’d rather dig a shelter and stockpile ammunitions. Or breed to help prevent our foretold doom, maybe? There’s this Algerian girl I…err… Not a good plan, I guess. I don’t want to risk raising little Jihadists… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/54 "2006-01-08T01:57:17Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Demographic replacement will _exactly_ take place through immigration. Some people are twitchy about the fact that the resultant babies will probably be brown. > . That’s a real problem. \*\* Treis \*\* in a following post, mentions Russia. We’re going to run out of hot blonde slavic babes. Annoying to say the least (well, not for you, of course, but still…). I should mail-order and marry one while there are some left and breed, breed, breed… Sounds like a very good anti-decline plan. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/55 "2006-01-08T02:14:00Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Yes, but what would cause those events? Even if EU governments were to suddenly endorse having more kids, is it plausible that the citizens would follow? Most probably yes, to some extent. The (relatively) high birthrate in France is generally attributed to public policies favoring parents, and the most often mentionned is quite simple : the wide availbility of essentially free public day care centers. In Germany, where the birthrate is much lower, I understand that a mother is _strongly expected_ to quit working for at least some years to take care of her kids. Lack of alternatives and social pressures result in… actually women not being very willing to have children. While a french mother is usually expected to quit for some months and then resume working. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/56 "2006-01-08T02:25:07Z")
> [@MindWanderer](#): > > Since so few Europeans go to church, even if they label themselves Christian, while the Islamic religion mandates prayer five times a day, the religion will have a disproportionate political and cultural effect beyond its population. When you have a group of people who reaffirm their religion five times a day, and are united in religious identity, that is a powerful political block… Your mistake is assuming that they actually pray five time a day… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/57 "2006-01-08T02:29:15Z")
> [@furt](#): > > But it does not address the central reality of low birth rates combined with the generous pension plans the European welfare model grants: fewer and fewer workers supporting a larger and larger number of non-workers. . But this is _not_ the topic of your thread… Or maybe it is and it’s only an unfortunate happenstance that made you choose a rambling about muslims taking over as your cite? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/58 "2006-01-08T02:35:28Z")
> [@gum](#): > > So I’m just as baffled as you are as to WHY the ‘Left’ is embracing Islam. > It makes no sense at all. Err… Maybe because we know that the kind of people and events you mention pretending they’re representative of the muslim population really aren’t at all? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/59 "2006-01-08T02:37:56Z")
> [@gum](#): > > \*\* I’m having problems with a very intolerant religion\*\*. Okay? Me too. And weirdly enough, I’m still not worried. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/60 "2006-01-08T03:01:28Z")
Gosh darn it! FGM is not an ‘Islamic thing.’ It is unknown amongst most Muslims and Muslim countries. It is an ‘African thing,’ practiced (I suppose) by people of all sorts of religions. There is enough stuff out there people can say about Islam, but we cannot hang FGM on it. As the two cultures come into closer contact, it is critical we learn more about one another. Spreading rumors and half-truths does not help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706.md?page=4)