# The demographic death of Europe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706 "2006-01-06T04:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/61 "2006-01-08T04:29:05Z")
**Clairobscur,** I agree, totally. And let me be the first to offer congratulations – seven posts in a row is, I believe, an SDMB record, at least for GD. (All right, so I’ve been watching playoff football – what of it?) ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/62 "2006-01-08T04:30:08Z")
Damnit, I meant eight. Adn now I’m up to two myself. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/63 "2006-01-08T18:18:19Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But this is _not_ the topic of your thread… Or maybe it is and it’s only an unfortunate happenstance that made you choose a rambling about muslims taking over as your cite? Yes, it is. The European social model – early retirements and generous pensions, lots of state-provided benefits – is a big cause of the demand for workers, which in the absence of native-born children, means a demand for immigrants. If people were working later and/or were providing for their own retirements with minimal or no help from the state, the graying of the population would be less of a problem. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/64 "2006-01-08T22:43:41Z")
> [@Curious Joe](#): > > 1- We shall tolerate all Muslim women wearing veils in Europe. However, if the moral police or anyone in an Islamic country bothers a Dutch female tourist not wearing a veil or even walking in a mini skirt, the Dutch police in Netherlands would immediately arrest and deport 10 Muslim women from that Islamic country (who are wearing veils in the streets of Holland) back to their country of origin, explaining through diplomatic channels why such action was taken by the Dutch government. Tit for Tat on “intolerance”. > > 2- If anyone bothers or arrests a French woman taking a nude sunbath at the beaches of the Caspian sea in Iran or in the Persian Gulf, the French police immediately rounds up and deport back 100 Arab/Iranian visitors to the French Riviera who are gazing at the private parts of the nude female bathers on the Mediterranean beaches. Again, Tit for Tat on intolerance (no pun intended). Fascinating ideas. I have just a few questions. Firstly, how will you pass these laws since they are plainly illegal or unconstitutional in any western Eurpoean country? Secondly, what do you propose as the legal defintion of the word “bother”? Thirdly, explain your interpretation of the phrase “tit for tat”. The two examples you provide are certainly not “tit for tat” under the correct English-language interpretation. Fourthly, what if the Muslim countries respond in kind? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/65 "2006-01-08T23:23:10Z")
> [@Curious Joe](#): > > Okay. I see two immediate problems: > 1- You believe that _Muslim girls are mutilated by cutting off their clitoris_. Suggest you may want to revise some of your beliefs. Would cutting off a man’s penis be mutilation? Would it be mutilation if we sowed his anus shut? Are you saying that FGM is _not_ mutiliation? > [@](#): > > Here are couple of suggestions: > > 1- We shall tolerate all Muslim women wearing veils in Europe. However, if the moral police or anyone in an Islamic country bothers a Dutch female tourist not wearing a veil or even walking in a mini skirt, the Dutch police in Netherlands would immediately arrest and deport 10 Muslim women from that Islamic country (who are wearing veils in the streets of Holland) back to their country of origin, explaining through diplomatic channels why such action was taken by the Dutch government. Tit for Tat on “intolerance”. > > 2- If anyone bothers or arrests a French woman taking a nude sunbath at the beaches of the Caspian sea in Iran or in the Persian Gulf, the French police immediately rounds up and deport back 100 Arab/Iranian visitors to the French Riviera who are gazing at the private parts of the nude female bathers on the Mediterranean beaches. Again, Tit for Tat on intolerance (no pun intended). [/quote] The main problem I see with this is that a government probably couldn’t care less what happens to ex-patriates and citizens spending money outside of the country. In fact, that government may _want_ these people to be humiliated and jerked around. Reminds people why they should stay home. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/66 "2006-01-08T23:28:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Would cutting off a man’s penis be mutilation? Would it be mutilation if we sowed his anus shut? Are you saying that FGM is _not_ mutiliation? Isn’t **Curious Joe** pointing out the error in thinking “Muslim = FGM”? FGM is alien to the majority of Muslim cultures, and is practiced by some Christian ones in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/67 "2006-01-08T23:47:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Isn’t **Curious Joe** pointing out the error in thinking “Muslim = FGM”? FGM is alien to the majority of Muslim cultures, and is practiced by some Christian ones in Africa. Oh. That makes more sense. I retract the outrage. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/68 "2006-01-09T02:12:04Z")
> [@MindWanderer](#): > > I think religious immigration is far more powerful and enduring demographically then your arguments which are about ethnic immigration in the US, it seems. But the immigration **Dead Badger** was referring to could just as easily be characterized as religious rather than ethnic. Those southern European immigrants were overwhelmingly Catholic, and the large majority of US citizens in those days were Protestants. They felt Catholicism was antethical to American culture, and feared the consequences of allowing such an alien faith to grow in influence in the US. Their concerns proved, in the end, to be unfounded. I suspect the same will prove true in Europe today (although the assimilation period will be stressful, just as it was in the US a century earlier). ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/69 "2006-01-09T04:05:41Z")
> [@Curious Joe](#): > > If you don’t want your ladies to be bothered by us when they are here carrying your culture, stop bothering our women when they are in your country carrying their culture. I’m not sure how things are in Europe, but where I’m from I see women walking in in chadors, saris, schools miniskirts, punjabi suits, cheong-sams, kente cloth, sarongs, huiples, levis, and just about anything you can think of. I don’t think they are “carrying culture X”. They are carrying American culture. They are shopping, opening businesses, making and watching media, having children and living out their lives in America. They are contributing to America. And so when they call up their friends and family in country X, I hope they have some nice things to say about America. And I will fight anyone who wants to say that they should have to dress or act in any particular way. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/70 "2006-01-09T04:31:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In the U.S., it is not M.E.N.A. Muslims, but Central American Hispanics that frighten people with their “refusal” to assimilate–all the while that the second generation is assimilating. They are not becoming nice little Protestant WASPs like their German and English predecessors, and they are having an effect that modifies American culture as they enter it, but they are very much becoming “Americans” in the way that Japanese (and now Korean) kids are becoming “Westernized.” I don’t think this is the correct analogy. The U.S. analog to Fundamentalist Islam doesn’t come from Hispanic immigrants but from right-wing Christian Fundamentalists. It’s religious fundamentalism that is the threat to secular western society. The only difference is that that threat is home-grown in the U.S., while in Europe its imported. I’m with **gum** on this. I don’t oppose religious fundamentalism not because I’m conservative, but because I’m liberal. I worry about the future in Europe for gays, women, Jews, free-thinkers and others. Nor is it a racial thing, certainly not for me, at any rate. If secular tolerant western society has a browner future, that’s fine by me, just so long as it has a future. I share **astorian’s** confusion. We routinely pit the pronouncements of Falwell and Robertson on this board. The only difference between them and the Islamic radicals is that the Muslim radicals are worse. A tolerant society demands mutual tolerance from and for each of its members. One cannot tolerate intolerance. You cannot live peaceably with people who are planning your murder. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslims are decent peaceable people. However, I’m also aware that a small militant subgroup can have power way out of proportion to their numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/71 "2006-01-09T10:46:38Z")
> [@furt](#): > > What will the consequences be of a majority-Muslim Europe? > Eurodopers, is your forecast more hopeful? If so, why? First, I come from a part of Europe which actually still value children, and with a healthy average fertility a good ways above replacement level – and above the US (Iceland: around 2. Faeroe Island: 2.5. Greenland: 2.7) Second. I don’t like much of what cultural, religious and political direction Western Europe has taken the last half century. It is my hope that the immigrants can infuse a new energy and vitality into a Europe that seem to be so scared and impotent these days. While I’m no great fan of Islam, I really fucking hate the god awful mix Social Democratic nonsense and cultural nihilism and cultural self-hatred that seem to be the ruling ideologue of Western Europe these days, and of these two I’d take the conservative Islam any day of the week. And if European culture really is so weak and pathetic, that it, despite immense riches, can’t even manage to reproduce itself, then it most go - and good riddance. The world will be better off without it. What I don’t really understand, is people, like tomnddebb, whom seem to take it for granted, almost as a fatalistic belief, that the immigrants – or their descendents - will become homo-loving feminists with added liberal benefits. I doubt it. Certainly experience so far don’t point that way. And I it never will. Personally I wouldn’t mind rolling back some of the excesses of feminism and gay politics – as well as many other liberal policies. And certainly I’m not going to be more of a feminist than women, or more of a gay-rights supporter than gays (both segments which on average are more likely to vote on pro-immigration parties). The 2/3 generation immigrants I meet and work with, they’re not in the least homo-loving feminists. My current place of work, with some 90% 2/3 generation immigrants, has had to hire a man to do the talk with the employees, since many of them wouldn’t accept taking orders from a woman – or indeed shake hands with a woman. (The Iraqi I work with, loudly and viciously hates gays – he says the only gays in Iraq are American troops.) Last year there was a report that had Amsterdam again become a dangerous place for gays – due to immigrant gangs. It’s much the same for Copenhagen. Apparently there have been a number of instances of gangs standing outside gay-bars and beating up the people when they walk out. Gay campaign houses have been vandalised and torched. Etc. – but what to say. This is not what I want. But it’s their bed, they made it, so they shouldn’t whine when they get to sleep in it. Also I think Steyn is wrong to put Islam as the big threat. While there’re still some high growth areas, I think the main population growth areas these days, lies outside Islam, and Islam is in fact not the “fastest growing religion”. Fertility Decline in Muslim Countries: [http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/muslimfertility/muslimfertility.html](http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/muslimfertility/muslimfertility.html) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/72 "2006-01-09T12:34:01Z")
I’d just like to add that in Brazil (and Argentina even more) we have millions of people of Italian origin. Some of them still talk italian and think the same way. Germans in the south. Spaniards are a bit less common… most follow the same customs. Portuguese origin are the most common naturally. Why in the hell are europeans giving muslim immigrants so many more chances ? Brazilians are very adaptable and gregarious. They are christian 99% of the time. Color and culture wise more easily integrated. If they had a smart workforce policy they could hold back “demographic death” without going into a cultural clash dilemma. Still eventually europeans and americans will have to breed their own workforce… that requires well made social services and benefits. Sweden if I’m not mistaken has a good replacement rate… ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/73 "2006-01-09T12:43:43Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I don’t like much of what cultural, religious and political direction Western Europe has taken the last half century. It is my hope that the immigrants can infuse a new energy and vitality into a Europe that seem to be so scared and impotent these days. […] And if European culture really is so weak and pathetic, that it, despite immense riches, can’t even manage to reproduce itself, then it most go - and good riddance. The world will be better off without it. Amen! I, for one, have already grown a rather impressive beard and welcome, nay, embrace our new Islamic overlords. We had a good run (my favourites were the crusades, WW1 and, of course, the sequel). (I cut off the “not a fan of Islam” thing, since I am a bit of a fan) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/74 "2006-01-09T12:57:45Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > I’d just like to add that in Brazil (and Argentina even more) we have millions of people of Italian origin. Some of them still talk italian and think the same way. Germans in the south. Spaniards are a bit less common… most follow the same customs. Portuguese origin are the most common naturally. > > Why in the hell are europeans giving muslim immigrants so many more chances ? Brazilians are very adaptable and gregarious. They are christian 99% of the time. Color and culture wise more easily integrated. > > If they had a smart workforce policy they could hold back “demographic death” without going into a cultural clash dilemma. Still eventually europeans and americans will have to breed their own workforce… that requires well made social services and benefits. > > Sweden if I’m not mistaken has a good replacement rate… In the 70’s much of Europe received a fair number of refugees and immigrants from Chile and Argentina. Even in Denmark (not catholic/South European) they’re pretty much all integrated perfectly into Danish society. > [@UselessGit](#): > > Amen! I, for one, have already grown a rather impressive beard and welcome, nay, embrace our new Islamic overlords. We had a good run (my favourites were the crusades, WW1 and, of course, the sequel). Well I’m hoping we’re just down for a breather. Getting ready for the next big war. Let’s not go gently into that good night. RAGE! ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/75 "2006-01-09T13:06:59Z")
Rune a problem is that Latin America is quickly approaching the low birth rates of the US… soon we won’t be churning out enough immigrants for you guys in the First World. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/76 "2006-01-09T14:00:26Z")
What puzzles me is that even as people are less and less interested in having their own children and continuing their family, more and more people are interested, obsessed, about tracing their family back through a gazillion ancestors – but apparently not overly concerned that the lineage stops there with them. That they are the last. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/77 "2006-01-09T14:07:01Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > First, I come from a part of Europe which actually still value children, and with a healthy average fertility a good ways above replacement level – and above the US (Iceland: around 2. Faeroe Island: 2.5. Greenland: 2.7) **Rune** , I’m sorry, but this made me laugh. If you’re looking for help in that direction, I really haven’t got much to offer you. But I will ask you again – how many children do \*you \*have? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/78 "2006-01-09T14:15:58Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > **Rune** , I’m sorry, but this made me laugh. If you’re looking for help in that direction, I really haven’t got much to offer you. But I will ask you again – how many children do \*you \*have? uh? What direction? I put in that part because I think perhaps my take is not typical European. I usually don’t think it’s a good idea to put in that kind of personal information in such debates, but if you really want to know, then I ain’t got no children. But I do have a couple of devil spawns – and another one in the make. I’ll do a few more before I’m done. Kids are way cool. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/79 "2006-01-09T14:22:45Z")
All right, you’ve got me curious. What is a devil spawn? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/80 "2006-01-09T14:25:58Z")
Devil spawn. You know something spawned by the devil (that’d be me). Two daughters (4, 7) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706.md?page=5)