# The demographic death of Europe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706 "2006-01-06T04:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/81 "2006-01-09T14:30:37Z")
You confused me when you said you had no children. Anyway, if you’ve produced three whatyamacallems, you’re off the hook here. No one can accuse _you_ of being a chickenhawk of the demographic wars. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/82 "2006-01-09T14:39:14Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Rune a problem is that Latin America is quickly approaching the low birth rates of the US… soon we won’t be churning out enough immigrants for you guys in the First World. Well, damn, you don’t expect us to pick our own oranges, do you??!? Get busy, dude! Get busy! JUST KIDDING! (damn politically correct yutzes always overreacting whenever a guy just wants to make a wisecrack once in a while without being taken seriously why don’t you people grow a sense a humor for crying out loud lighten up a little just tryin’ ta make people _laugh_ a little ya know?) \_ ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/83 "2006-01-10T01:39:28Z")
> [@Curious Joe](#): > > 1- Let a few more Moroccans or Algerians kill a film director like Van Gogh in cold blood, you’ll see how fast the current “illegal” retaliations in Netherlands will become “legal”, even if it may require constitutional amendments to protect the Dutch people against the terrorists. Patriot Act following 9/11 comes to mind. Well that’s your prediction. I personally find the odds of a any more Muslim immigrants murdering Dutch filmmakers to be somewhat slight. However, even if that happened multiple times, I would not hold my breath waiting for the Dutch to renounce their centuries-old tradition of individualism in favor of Nazism-light. > [@](#): > > Freedom to wear veil in Amsterdam stops till freedom to wear mini skirt in Mecca starts. I believe that freedom th wear a veil in Amsterdam starts when the Duth people established a Constitution based on individual freedom. You apparently believe that laws in the Netherlands are determined not by the Dutch people, but rather by the actions of the Saudi fascist government (which would have fallen years ago if not for American support). I’d be quite interested to hear how you arrived at that conclusion, but frankly the Dtuch Constitution declares myself to be right and yourself to be wrong. > [@](#): > > If Iranian government does not pass and enforce a law to stop their thugs bothering the Western female visitors without a veil, then the Dutch government can implement a law to deport Iranian women, wearing veils while roaming the streets of Netherlands. That is “equivalent retaliation”. Tit for Tat. If Iranian woman A does nothing wrong and is deported from the Netherlands, that is not tit for tat. That is tit for nothing. (Or perhaps nothing for tat?) > [@](#): > > 4- What if a Muslim country responds in kind? I suppose I do not understand your question within the context of the above 3 answers. Please give me an example of what can the intolerant Muslim country do to “respond in kind”. There are any number of possibilities. For instance, the Arab countries might group together and state that for every Muslim whose rights are flagrantly abused in the Netherlands, oil will be withheld for the space of one day. Let me cut to the quick. The generally anti-Muslim sentiment among several users of this thread seemed to arise from the belief that Muslims are opposed to individual rights, and that if they become a majority in Europe then individual rights will suffer. Now here you are saying that Europe should just take all indvidual rights and dump them in the trash can. See the contradiction? What you say is unimportant. Obviously your juvenile revenge fantasy of abusing Muslim women will forever remain a juvenile revenge fantasy; the people of Europe are better than that. Nevertheless, a large amount of opposition to the basic principles of western civilization (democracy, equality, and individual liberty) is certain to cause trouble). That’s why I (and most Europeans) view folks like you as a much bigger threat to freedom than any number of Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/84 "2006-01-10T02:54:34Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > My current place of work, with some 90% 2/3 generation immigrants, has had to hire a man to do the talk with the employees, since many of them wouldn’t accept taking orders from a woman Doesn’t your HR department know how to process Terminated For Cause (Insubordination) paperwork? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/85 "2006-01-10T03:37:17Z")
**Rune** posts from Denmark where, one supposes, the rules for termination may differ. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/86 "2006-01-10T05:12:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Rune** posts from Denmark where, one supposes, the rules for termination may differ. I find it difficult to believe that any functional country forbids employers from terminating employees for insubordination. The effort required to document the insubordination may cost a bit up front, but continuing to pay Dane-geld to the employees for not doing their jobs is bound to cost more in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/87 "2006-01-10T05:33:33Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Apparently there have been a number of instances of gangs standing outside gay-bars and beating up the people when they walk out. Gay campaign houses have been vandalised and torched. Etc. – but what to say. This is not what I want. But it’s their bed, they made it, so they shouldn’t whine when they get to sleep in it. You say this is not what you want, but the “they made their bed” comment makes it seem as though this is what you think they deserve. Am I reading you correctly? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/88 "2006-01-10T05:54:09Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > I find it difficult to believe that any functional country forbids employers from terminating employees for insubordination. The effort required to document the insubordination may cost a bit up front, but continuing to pay Dane-geld to the employees for not doing their jobs is bound to cost more in the long run. While the results you describe are probably accurate, reality is no shield against bureaucratic interference in such procedures. Note **Coldy** ’s comments in this recent thread on firing (and recall that Denmark and the Netherlands may share more than an ocean front view): [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6945723#post6945723](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6945723#post6945723) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6948809#post6948809](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6948809#post6948809) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/89 "2006-01-10T11:26:03Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Well, damn, you don’t expect us to pick our own oranges, do you??!? Get busy, dude! Get busy! Hehehe… actually that be them duorn Mexicauns… in Brazil we plant oranges that are taking away those jobs ! Everytime there is bad weather in Florida we start exporting more orange juice ! 😃 I don’t know how birth rates in Mexico are going… ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/90 "2006-01-10T11:54:39Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Doesn’t your HR department know how to process Terminated For Cause (Insubordination) paperwork? That’s hardly the point, unless you think firing them will make them look any different on women. A thing I find highly unlikely. But yes they could fire them. Employing and laying off people in Denmark is very easy – probably easier than the US. But, unlike where claiobscur is from – and where laying off is hard, the Danish economy is absolutely booming, which has resulted in an acute shortage of labour. This have been so for a number of years in the higher educated workforce and for everybody in construction. Now it has spread to unskilled workers too – and Denmark is actively trying to lure people from Poland and the Baltics to move here. So, even though it is mainly unskilled labour they’re hiring left and right, they are in no position to be picky. > [@Rodgers01](#): > > You say this is not what you want, but the “they made their bed” comment makes it seem as though this is what you think they deserve. Am I reading you correctly? No, because what the statistics say and the individual say is not the same. But it is hard not to find a bit of poetic justices in seeing people get what they wish for. Here’s the article from Amsterdam: [It may be Europe’s most liberal city - but if you are gay, you had best beware](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1611374,00.html) > [@](#): > > His attackers were Moroccan youths, blamed by Dutch gay rights groups for a disturbing rise of gay-bashing, as conservative Islamic culture clashes with Dutch liberalism. > For the first time, the Amsterdam Tourist Board has issued a warning to gay visitors to be careful in the city. In the first country to legalise homosexual marriage, gays are increasingly fearful of holding hands in public. Some have been chased out of their houses and middle-class gays are moving to rural areas for safety. > COC Nederland, the Dutch gay rights organisation, which led the struggle for acceptance, said that the tolerant climate was “slipping away like sand through the fingers”. > Rene Soeren, a COC spokesman, said: “The feeling of insecurity in Amsterdam is rising. Gays and lesbians are less willing to walk hand-in-hand because they might be beaten up.” This development was obvious from decades away, and more and worse will come in the next decades – this is now unavoidable. And is mirrored in set backs for other groups, like women and Jews – witness the EU survey which showed that most European anti-Semitism these years originates from Muslim immigrants. But if those groups that see the set backs insists that this is the direction they want or insist on closing their eyes to it (the EU survey was attempted suppressed when it failed to produce the wanted conclusion), they should not complain when what they work to accomplish, gets accomplished. No-one is obliged to help those that refuse to help themselves, or indeed actively resist help. Here’s another article on the demographics of Europe: [Europe’s ‘baby bust’ signals major change, from the Washington Times.](http://www.washtimes.com/world/20051124-121045-6980r.htm) It has this paragraph: > [@](#): > > In one well-known case, a disaffected Islamic terrorist cited the demographic imbalance in France as one source of his frustration. > > Engineering student Kemal Daoudi, the son of Algerian immigrants to France who lived in the isolated Parisian suburbs cut off from mainstream French life, joined Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda and was arrested just after the September 11 attacks in 2001 for plotting to attack the U.S. Embassy in Paris. > > He told French investigators that he first was motivated to join al Qaeda by the “abominable treatment” he and fellow immigrants received as **"subcitizens good only to keep working to pay for the retirement of the ‘real’ French when the French age pyramid gets thin at the base."** While I think Kemal Daoudi should be sowed up in a pigskin, raped by a donkey and shipped to Saudi Arabia, I can’t help but feel a certain sympathy for his revulsion at having to support a greying, impotent and infirm population of old people who have only themselves to blame for their lack of children to care for them and which even feel they are entitled to having other peoples’ children work hard to support them just because they happened to be born in France/etc. If they were so full of themselves and their material pursuits that they couldn’t even be bothered to have children and look to their own future beyond their working years, well then they only have themselves to blame. I have zero sympathy with them and would feel in better company were I with Kemal Daoudi and his donkey. For all I care they can work till they drop or languish in their own dirty diapers - which I expect is what they will in 10-20 years time. Only an absolutely fool would rely, or expect, the state collapsing under demographics, or other peoples children, with no moral obligation, to support them in their old age. Again, if you make your bed, you should be prepared to lie in it. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/91 "2006-01-10T12:01:12Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Hehehe… actually that be them duorn Mexicauns… in Brazil we plant oranges that are taking away those jobs ! Everytime there is bad weather in Florida we start exporting more orange juice ! 😃 > > I don’t know how birth rates in Mexico are going… [Demographics of Mexico](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Mexico). Still healthy replacement rate, but flattening out. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/92 "2006-01-10T12:15:16Z")
Lets see if this line of thought works: - Europe is suffering from a major unemployement problem isn’t it ? At least Germany and France certainly are. - Declining populations mean less overall unemployement for the future ? - “More” jobs and less crowding might help living standards… - … leading to more babies as better living conditions and jobs bring security ? Naturally this will not bring the replacement rate to 2.1 … but will slow down the demographic death to bearable levels. Europe is currently overcrowded compared to the US for example. The problem is losing too much population and social security that was too generous. Certainly some good policies might avoid worse problems… but I doubt there is political will to tighten belts and generous government services. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/93 "2006-01-22T09:37:10Z")
Don’t know why you wanted to include the price of beans in Iraq in a discussion on Europe, but you do know that there are now many areas of Western Europe where the clothing of women is very restricted and women not properly dressed according to Islamic tradition are called sluts and whores and subjected to what’s worse. In Denmark we had a judge let off easy three men of a gang raping because “the girl (15) was provocative dressed”, and in Norway a politician is on record saying girls must bear a good deal of the blame of rapes if they dress too provocatively for the Islamic tradition. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/94 "2006-01-22T09:53:01Z")
> [@Curious Joe](#): > > OK. Get ready for the fight. We are in Iraq. We are in Afghanistan. And we are getting ready to go to Iran. > > Now, go and fight those people who do not let you to dress or act in any particular way. > > Oh I see. You meant you’ll fight for what you believe is right “in the west only”? Then I suppose those “terrorist insurgents” are fighting against the West for what they believe what is right “in the East only”. > > So, what the F\*\*k are the Westerners doing occupying or showing presence in the East? Does the notion of “Yankee, go home” means anything to you? You do know that in the 70’s and 80’s, before we started mucking about in things, Iraqi women enjoyed one of the highest statuses in the region, right? Iraq had a concentrated effort to banish illiteracy and promote integrating women in to the workplace and the greater public sphere. In 1976, 38.5% of trained professionals were women. Women were guaranteed equal rights under the constitution and were not compelled to wear hijab. Walking around Baghdad in, say, 1985, you would have seen female doctors and lawyers walking around in Western dress. The war in 1991 and sanctions led to a decrease in living standard that affected women the hardest, and allowed tribal differences and other local difficulties to turn back the clock on women’s rights. With the fall of the government this time around, Islamic fundamentalists have rushed in to fill the void and now Iraqi women are losing their hard-won rights. Any plight Iraqi women have is directly because of us. And of course, Iranian women took up the veil in protest when the US-backed government tried to ban it. I wouldn’t say their situation right now is great, but once again we were the catalyst. I admit I can’t say much nice about Taliban Afghanistan, except to note that the Taliban is widely regarded as a foreign regime that gained power with (once again) our help. Incidentally, the third country that mandates hijab is our good buddies Saudi Arabia. Funny how we never hear a peep about their women’s rights violations, when indeed theirs are some of the worst in the Middle East. In any case, East or West, voluntary hijab is a valid choice. Every day when I go to work I put on a bra so god forbid my nipples don’t show, and then I put on pantyhose because to show my real legs in the office- no matter how hot it is- would be “inappropriate.” Then I paint my face because having plain old flesh-colored eyelids and not painting over my pimples would be “unprofessional.” How is this all that different than a headscarf? Many women wear hijab in America because A) They feel uncomfortable without it B) It helps them be seen as professional in the workplace- instead of the “cute lady doctor” or “chubby lawyer” they can just be doctors and lawyers C) It helps them avoid unwanted male attention and D) They feel a certain allegiance with Islamic values, which is not automatically contradictory with being an American. Anyway, it’s not me. It’s not my choice. You can walk around wearing a banana suit for all I care. If you are participating in American life, you are American to me. End of story. As for our wars, I bet you can guess my take on them. But that doesn’t have much to do with this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706/95 "2006-01-22T15:08:55Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That’s a real problem. \*\* Treis \*\* in a following post, mentions Russia. We’re going to run out of hot blonde slavic babes. Annoying to say the least (well, not for you, of course, but still…). > > I should mail-order and marry one while there are some left and breed, breed, breed… Sounds like a very good anti-decline plan. 🙂 Don’t forget all the Baltic and Balkan chyx out there who need hawt money lovin’, er _monkey_ lovin’. They also…well…aren’t Russian, which actually may be a [good thing](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0781808324/sr=1-1/qid=1137942492/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3840066-1260955?%5Fencoding=UTF8). I knew a sweet old Estonian woman once who told me that Estonian girls all have to have at least 3 kids before they’re 30. This may have changed (I haven’t looked up the birthrate in Estonia lately), but you might look there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-demographic-death-of-europe/338706.md?page=4)