# The Dems should put forward their own tax reform plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507 "2017-11-13T02:05:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/21 "2017-11-13T15:30:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The highest tax bracket for 1993 - 2001 was 39.6%. The highest tax bracket right now is 39.6%. But they raised the income threshold from 296K (1993) to 415K (2016). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/22 "2017-11-13T15:33:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think the broader idea is a good one – we could have a progressive tax reform bill with the potential to be popular (even with no chance of passing under this congress). For example – make taxes very easy… let the IRS do it (since they already collect all the info required anyway), and send out a letter every Jan/Feb with your estimated tax bill or refund, which everyone is free to challenge and recalculate if they wish, or accept and pay/process without challenging if they prefer. Remove the cap on payroll taxes. Bring back Clinton-level higher-income brackets. And various other progressive tax preferences. > > At the very least, I don’t think they’d lose anything by presenting such a plan. But they should avoid mentioning the Clinton name in the process. It makes not one bit of difference how good the economy was during the Clinton era. Rational thinking aside, that name is a liability in politics at this point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/23 "2017-11-13T15:36:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > But they raised the income threshold from 296K (1993) to 415K (2016). Inflation. Tax brackets need to be adjusted from time to time, just to account for inflation. $296K on Jan 1 1994 = $499K today, according to the CPI Inflation calculator on the BLS website. The inflation adjust threshold for that bracket is lower today than it was during Clinton’s tenure. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/24 "2017-11-13T15:56:30Z")
Yeah, I effed it up. It was 250K in 1993. But your point stands. Taxes in [1993](https://www.tax-brackets.org/federaltaxtable/1993) were higher than [2017](https://www.tax-brackets.org/federaltaxtable). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/25 "2017-11-13T15:59:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bring back… various other progressive tax preferences. > > At the very least, I don’t think they’d lose anything by presenting such a plan. Don’t you think it might depend on the specific details of what you mean by “various other progressive tax preferences”? That’s a tad vague, I would say. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/26 "2017-11-13T17:03:53Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Why? Here’s a tax plan for you: > > - All taxes revert to where they were on the first day of Bill Clinton’s administration, except: > - If your AGI is less than $125K single, $250K filing joint, reduce it by 35% before continuing. > - If your AGI is greater than $500K/$1M, increase it by 20% before continuing. > - Index the AMT to inflation retroactively, starting in 1975. > > There you go. Debt goes down, we actually fix the problem (we’ve been giving out tax cuts for decades with no revenue increase), and it’s a middle class tax cut. > > This problem isn’t hard. It’s only hard if the actual goal is to give a bunch of pathologically wealthy people their 2,719’th handout in tax cuts while CALLING it a "middle class tax cut. I think you’re missing the premise of the OP. He suggested that the Democrats come up with a tax plan that raises the debt by $1.5 trillion (“This makes me think that the Dems could gain support by taking the same 1.5 trillion and creating a plan that is actually aimed at the middle and working class…”). I said it doesn’t make sense for Dems to embrace the starting position of the debt going up. You’ve proposed a concept in which the debt would not go up, so we aren’t really talking about the same thing. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, they’re not. To say otherwise presupposes that the money _belongs_ to the government, and not the taxpayer. So when corporations negotiate favorable tax deals in order to relocate factories or build stadiums or whatnot, you’re saying that these corporations aren’t actually getting a handout, because we cannot presuppose that their money belongs to the government? Huh. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/27 "2017-11-13T17:08:14Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, they’re not. To say otherwise presupposes that the money _belongs_ to the government, and not the taxpayer. The taxpayers ARE the government. Government is just a collection of citizens that exists to perform functions too broad for individual citizens to perform or afford. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/28 "2017-11-13T17:26:43Z")
I prefer proposing a plan over just complaining about someone else’s plan (or the status quo.) But whether the Dems could agree on one…I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/29 "2017-11-13T17:28:44Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > The taxpayers ARE the government. Are the roughly 47% of the population that pay zero federal income taxes not part of the government, then? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/30 "2017-11-13T17:30:52Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > My thought is, if they put out a plan that " doesn’t … worry about the actual economic consequences or political realities", they’d just be setting themselves up for (actually legitimate, in this case) accusations that “Those Libtards just don’t understand math!” ‘Deficits don’t matter.’ - Republican (former) Vice President Dick Cheney ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/31 "2017-11-13T17:33:37Z")
Cheney attributed that discovery to Reagan. The party forgot it under the Clinton and Obama administrations, though. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are the roughly 47% of the population that pay zero federal income taxes not part of the government, then? Is that the only tax in existence? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/32 "2017-11-13T18:06:41Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I prefer proposing a plan over just complaining about someone else’s plan (or the status quo.) So would I, but it’s easier to stir up the base by complaining about what the other side does. The GOP is pinning its hopes for 2018 to a tax cut; the Dems are pinning their hopes on complaining about tax cuts for the rich no matter what the bill says. A better alternative would be too divisive - every Democrat can agree that whatever the GOP wants is bad. In order to get a better alternative, Dems would have to go into the gruesome details of whatever they propose, and people’s eyes glaze over. “Math class is hard”, says Barbie, and most voters agree with her. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/33 "2017-11-13T18:14:37Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are the roughly 47% of the population that pay zero federal income taxes not part of the government, then? Which right-wing website do you read that taught you that the income tax is the only tax that entitles an American to be called a taxpayer? Do you believe that poor people pay nothing in any other kind of taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/34 "2017-11-13T18:18:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …the Dems are pinning their hopes on complaining about tax cuts for the rich no matter what the bill says. This is probably true. Though it definitely helps that the plan is, in fact, to massively cut taxes for the rich while raising them on a significant proportion of the middle class. I figured I faced a lot of risks with complete GOP control of the federal government. But I didn’t think my taxes going up (while ballooning the deficit) was one of them. I thought I’d probably get nuked before that happened. Interesting times! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/35 "2017-11-13T18:27:34Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are the roughly 47% of the population that pay zero federal income taxes not part of the government, then? Romney, is that you?.. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/36 "2017-11-13T18:28:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > … raising them on a significant proportion of the middle class. … What’s your understanding of “a significant proportion” here? Are we talking about 5-10%? 50%? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/37 "2017-11-13T18:32:36Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Why? Here’s a tax plan for you: > > - All taxes revert to where they were on the first day of Bill Clinton’s administration, except: > - If your AGI is less than $125K single, $250K filing joint, reduce it by 35% before continuing. > - If your AGI is greater than $500K/$1M, increase it by 20% before continuing. > - Index the AMT to inflation retroactively, starting in 1975. > > There you go. Debt goes down… I don’t know, but I am curious: Has the CBO ever scored a proposal like this? Basically, how did you conclude the debt would go down under this plan? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/38 "2017-11-13T18:45:22Z")
The Republicans, both in Congress and the White House, have spent the last year demonstrating they are unable to run a government. The smartest thing the Democrats can do is sit back and let the Republicans continue to damage themselves. If the Democrats stepped forward and put up some proposals, they would have no chance of getting them enacted. All it would do is give the Republicans a chance to do the one thing they’re competent at; attacking about the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/39 "2017-11-13T18:51:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Republicans, both in Congress and the White House, have spent the last year demonstrating they are unable to run a government. ‘Republicans say the government doesn’t work and then get elected and prove it.’ – Ann Richards, 45th Governor of Texas ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/40 "2017-11-13T18:54:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s your understanding of “a significant proportion” here? Are we talking about 5-10%? 50%? Double digits. Hard to say exactly where, obviously, since they haven’t written a Byrd Rule compliant bill yet. ETA: Meant to add–almost certainly low double digits. But double digits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507.md?page=3)