# The Dems should put forward their own tax reform plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507 "2017-11-13T02:05:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/41 "2017-11-13T18:58:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Republicans, both in Congress and the White House, have spent the last year demonstrating they are unable to run a government. The smartest thing the Democrats can do is sit back and let the Republicans continue to damage themselves. Never interrupt your enemy when he’s busy making a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/42 "2017-11-13T19:13:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you believe that poor people pay nothing in any other kind of taxes? Sure, some. But this thread is about the federal income tax code. Paying sales tax at the Walmart doesn’t make one a citizen, or “the government.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/43 "2017-11-13T19:24:19Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Sure, some. But this thread is about the federal income tax code. > > Paying sales tax at the Walmart doesn’t make one a citizen, or “the government.” Given that corporations and wealthy individuals hide their money offshore to avoid paying some or all federal taxes, are they, by your own reasoning, not citizens? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/44 "2017-11-13T19:39:09Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Why? Here’s a tax plan for you: > > - All taxes revert to where they were on the first day of Bill Clinton’s administration, except: > - If your AGI is less than $125K single, $250K filing joint, reduce it by 35% before continuing. > - If your AGI is greater than $500K/$1M, increase it by 20% before continuing. > - Index the AMT to inflation retroactively, starting in 1975. > > There you go. Debt goes down, we actually fix the problem (we’ve been giving out tax cuts for decades with no revenue increase), and it’s a middle class tax cut. That’s a hell of a cliff you’ve introduced there. By my calculation, using 2017 tax brackets, a single person with taxable income of $124,999 would pay $16,052 (((124999_0.65)-37,950)_.25 + 5,226.25), and a person with taxable income of $125,000 would pay $27,981. Congratulations, you got a small raise! Now you owe an extra $11,000 in taxes! This is, frankly, a bafflingly weird and behavior-distorting way to make income taxes more progressive, especially since we already have the concept of _tax brackets_, which are progressive without weird discontinuities. > [@](#): > > This problem isn’t hard. How sure are you of that? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/45 "2017-11-13T19:46:08Z")
How about we have a Republican tax plan? The one we had under Eisenhower? ISTM that if the choice is ‘use it or lose it’, people and companies will invest in America instead of sitting on their offshore hoards like Smaug. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/46 "2017-11-13T19:47:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Romney, is that you?.. [Mitt:](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/sep/18/mitt-romney/romney-says-47-percent-americans-pay-no-income-tax/) > [@](#): > > "All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that’s an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. > > “And I mean the president starts out with 48, 49 percent … he starts off with a huge number,” Romney continued. “These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn’t connect. So he’ll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean, that’s what they sell every four years. And so my job is is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.” You know. Deplorables. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/47 "2017-11-13T19:48:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Given that corporations and wealthy individuals hide their money offshore to avoid paying some or all federal taxes, are they, by your own reasoning, not citizens? Citizens was a poor word choice on my part. I was responding to the person who said that “taxpayers are the government.” If one doesn’t pay federal income taxes, is he “the government?” ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/48 "2017-11-13T20:05:50Z")
I suppose “keep things the same” is a plan of sorts. It’s a shame though, because I think we probably could simplify the code (assuming that’s a goal) without horribly sticking it to anyone. But of course I don’t have a plan either. I suppose I could spout off nonsense proposals, as has already been done in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/49 "2017-11-13T20:09:10Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Citizens was a poor word choice on my part. I was responding to the person who said that “taxpayers are the government.” > > If one doesn’t pay federal income taxes, is he “the government?” As has already been brought to your attention, the “taxpayers” comprises more than just those who are currently paying federal income tax. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/50 "2017-11-13T20:14:28Z")
Right, the government is just the system We the People use to get things done on a broad scale. It isn’t (supposed to be) a machine into which you insert money and receive favors. I’m constantly amazed at the number of people who think of it is a kind of alien occupying power that must be resisted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/51 "2017-11-13T20:21:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Don’t you think it might depend on the specific details of what you mean by “various other progressive tax preferences”? That’s a tad vague, I would say. Yes, and guilty as charged. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/52 "2017-11-13T21:41:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Sure, some. But this thread is about the federal income tax code. > > Paying sales tax at the Walmart doesn’t make one a citizen, or “the government.” Paying sales tax does not make someone a taxpayer? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/53 "2017-11-13T21:53:02Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > As has already been brought to your attention, the “taxpayers” comprises more than just those who are currently paying federal income tax. But we’re talking about the federal income tax code. How exactly are those that pay none “the government”? Citizens are the government. Taxpayers are a subset. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/54 "2017-11-13T22:01:52Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > But we’re talking about the federal income tax code. How exactly are those that pay none “the government”? > > Citizens are the government. Taxpayers are a subset. Taxpayers are a superset. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/55 "2017-11-13T23:15:18Z")
How many taxpayers can dance on the head of a pin? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/56 "2017-11-13T23:26:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > But we’re talking about the federal income tax code. Which covers only a subset of taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/57 "2017-11-13T23:33:09Z")
Look, I don’t think tax cuts are a handout either. I could be deliberately obtuse about who is or is not a taxpayer, but that is only a good strategy for liberals pretending to be conservatives in order to make conservatives look bad. Coming back to the OP, does anyone recall any recent calls for tax changes by dems? I’m sure it came up during the last election but I’m not coming across anything comprehensive. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/58 "2017-11-13T23:38:49Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Coming back to the OP, does anyone recall any recent calls for tax changes by dems? I’m sure it came up during the last election but I’m not coming across anything comprehensive. One specific example is that every Obama budget included a proposal to close corporate tax loopholes that do silly things like make it easier to send jobs overseas. These proposals were opposed by Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/59 "2017-11-13T23:53:21Z")
Here’s is [Hillary on Taxes (2015/16, except as noted).](http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Tax_Reform.htm) An except: > [@](#): > > I have said repeatedly throughout this campaign: I will not raise taxes on anyone making $250,000 or less. I also will not add a penny to the debt. > > \ > > I’ve been in favor of getting rid of carried interest for years, starting when I was a US senator. > > \ > > I don’t see changes in the corporate tax rates or the kinds of proposals [Trump was] referring to that would cause the repatriation… > > \ > > I want to make sure the wealthy pay their fair share, which they have not been doing. I want the Buffett Rule to be in effect, where millionaires have to pay 30 percent tax rates instead of 10 percent to nothing… > > \ > > At the center of my campaign is how we’re going to raise wages. Yes, of course, raise the minimum wage, but we have to do so much more. We have to figure out how we’re going to make the tax system a fairer one. Right now, the wealthy pay too little and the middle class pays too much. So I have specific recommendations about how we’re going to close those loopholes, make it clear that the wealthy will have to pay their fair share, and have tax cuts for middle-class families. > > \ > > I wouldn’t raise it [Capital Gains Tax] above the 20% if I raised it at all. I would not raise it above what it was during the [Bill] Clinton administration. (this is from 2008) > > \ > > I will make it clear that the Bush tax cuts on the upper income, those making more than $250,000 a year, will be allowed to expire. (this, too, is from 2008). ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507/60 "2017-11-14T06:36:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, do the math for us, then. > > Assume a 50% estate tax on everyone. Run the numbers - how much will be collected, and from whom? If a small business owner dies, what happens to his business? If someone dies with any money in investments, what happens to those investments, and how are they liquidated? When a man dies, does his widow then have to sell their house and move? > > Regards, > Shodan 50% from estates over 1 million. Assets like trust funds become associated with their owners. The primary method used to do all this would be a census like effort of all assets with in the United States. [https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/measuring-the-top-1-by-wealth-not-income/](https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/17/measuring-the-top-1-by-wealth-not-income/) This also applies to foreign holders of American assets. But even ignoring them, since all these 1 million+ estates are for the top 1%, and they own 1/3 of everything, since America has 120 trillion net dollars, 120 trillion \* 1/3 \* 0.5 = 20 trillion. Ultimately, over about 30-50 years, the Federal government would now have assets roughly equal to the national debt. Books balanced. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dems-should-put-forward-their-own-tax-reform-plan/801507.md?page=4)