# The Deradicalization of the Palestinians **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194 "2023-12-26T20:39:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/21 "2023-12-27T02:35:39Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > The slogan “from the river to the sea” means one and only one thing; genocide of all the Jews in Israel. > (And no, despite what the president of Harvsrd says, it does not “depend on context”) And that insane claim is part of what’s being used as justification by some Israelis to justify ethnic cleansing. No, of course “from the River to the Sea” doesn’t inherently mean genocide. Some people who want genocide say it, but then, some people who want genocide also say “I’d like a falafel pita with extra tzaziki sauce, please”. That doesn’t mean genocide, either. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/22 "2023-12-27T02:42:15Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > The starting point must be to recognize that it is the Palestinians who are proudly committed to doing the ethnic cleansing …from Paula Gaviria Betancur, Special Rapporteur on the human rights of internally displaced persons: > [@](#): > > Israel is seeking to permanently alter the composition of Gaza’s population with ever-expanding evacuation orders and widespread and systematic attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure in southern areas of the besieged enclave, a UN expert warned today. > > … > > “As evacuation orders and military operations continue to expand and civilians are subjected to relentless attacks on a daily basis, the only logical conclusion is that Israel’s military operation in Gaza aims to deport the majority of the civilian population _en masse_,” the Special Rapporteur said. > > “Gaza’s housing and civilian infrastructure have been razed to the ground, frustrating any realistic prospects for displaced Gazans to return home, repeating a [long history of mass forced displacement](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls) of Palestinians by Israel,” she said. > > Since 7 October, 1.9 million people – 85 percent of Gaza’s population – have been internally displaced. The scope of evacuation orders has confined them to less than one-third of the Gaza Strip’s territory. Most IDPs live in overcrowded conditions where communicable diseases are on the rise, and struggle to access food, water, electricity healthcare, sanitation, and shelter. These conditions are expected to worsen with the onset of winter. > > … > > “I call on Israel to immediately end attacks on civilians, cease its campaign to alter the composition of Gaza’s population through mass forced displacement, implement a permanent ceasefire, allow for the unrestricted passage of humanitarian aid, and prioritise dialogue to secure the safe release of remaining hostages,” the Special Rapporteur said. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/israel-working-expel-civilian-population-gaza-un-expert-warns](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/israel-working-expel-civilian-population-gaza-un-expert-warns) Over the last 80 days we have seen Israel order the evacuation of the north of Gaza, and where some parts now look like this: Beit Lahia > Beit Hanoun > 1.9 million out of 2.3 million are now displaced. The UN estimates that _half_ of those displaced are now in Rafah. Many people have been displaced multiple times. 23 hospitals have been shut down by the IDF. None operating at all in the north. The ones that are still operating have been targeted over and over again by the IDF. The system is overloaded and barely functional. Gaza has been under siege for 80 days. Israel are literally _starving_ the people. The UN estimates that if this continues for another month, there will be _famine_. Infection and disease are already running rampant. And Israel has just announced the next phase of the war, the _evacuation_ of Central Gaza. Telling people to move to areas that are already targets of heavy bombing. If this next phase lasts as long as the first phase, then we are looking at least another 3 months. And there is no indication that they will stop there. Once they do what they did to the north to central Gaza, they will move to the south. It really is time to stop pretending that Israel are _not_ doing this. Every accusation is a _confession_. Israeli leadership are openly talking about “re-education” camps, about “voluntary” migration. The starting point must be to recognize that Israel’s strategy _isn’t targeting Hamas_. It’s targeting civilian infrastructure and civilians in Gaza. Its making the place uninhabitable. Its destoryed apartment blocks, government buildings, churches, Mosques, cemeteries, razed crops, have driven millions of people from the north to the southernmost point of the strip. They are starving Gaza, they are bombing Gaza. No place in Gaza is safe. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/23 "2023-12-27T02:48:48Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Ummm…this statement is so naive that even us Israelis who despise Netanyahu will not be able to join this thread . Ummm, the people who just slaughtered 20,000 Palestinians and admitted that they kill two civilians for every fighter are absolutely committing ethnic cleansing. Take it from the guy who’s been in three wars and sees what Israel is doing for what it is. > **[Israeli Soldiers Film Themselves Blowing Up Entire Gaza Neighborhood to...](https://themessenger.com/news/video-israel-soldiers-bomb-entire-neighborhood-gaza-city-shejaiya)** > > Videos circulating social media on Wednesday appear to show Israeli forces exploding dozens of buildings in a Gaza City neighborhood. Who are the radicals? ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/24 "2023-12-27T03:49:42Z")
What are the Zionist alternatives to Netanyahu, or Rabin, for that matter, who expanded settlements under his ministry and declared, “a Palestinian entity which is less than state.”? ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/25 "2023-12-27T03:50:28Z")
It isn’t a choice between a or b, it’s both. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/26 "2023-12-27T03:51:12Z")
Yep, that’s definitely what a war looks like. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/27 "2023-12-27T03:52:15Z")
Rabin wasn’t much different than Netanyahu. What are the Zionist alternatives? ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/28 "2023-12-27T03:56:38Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > The slogan “from the river to the sea” means one and only one thing; genocide of all the Jews in Israel. > (And no, despite what the president of Harvsrd says, it does not “depend on context”) No it doesn’t. The phrase “from the river to the sea,” is entirely context dependent. It means a Palestine free of the Zionist regime that to exist must necessarily oppress the Palestinian people. Such an entity must not exist, let alone have a right to exist. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/29 "2023-12-27T03:56:57Z")
Do tell, what is your experience? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/30 "2023-12-27T03:57:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yep, that’s definitely what a war looks like. …war doesn’t look like 80% of people driven out of the homes, into UN shelters that are regularly bombed, forced to move again and again like some sort of checkerboard, it doesn’t look like the complete destruction of all civilian infrastructure, nor does it typically involve destroying the hospital system, and a siege that is driving the population into starvation. What is happening here involves multiple breaches of international law and the Geneva Conventions. There are some people who don’t care about those things. But these things matter. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/31 "2023-12-27T03:58:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > war doesn’t look like 80% of people driven out of the homes, into UN shelters that are regularly bombed, forced to move again and again like some sort of checkerboard, it doesn’t look like the complete destruction of all civilian infrastructure, nor does it typically involve destroying the hospital system, and a siege that is driving the population into starvation. Tell that to Tokyo, Dresden, Stalingrad, Kyiv, or Atlanta. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/32 "2023-12-27T04:01:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Tell that to Tokyo, Dresden, Stalingrad, Kyiv, or Atlanta. Those were cities in countries. Gaza is not a country, it’s an open air prison under the uter control of Israel with prison self-administration allowed as the bone tossed to the Palestinians in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/33 "2023-12-27T04:07:54Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > Gaza is not a country Of course it is. It has its own government and its population are not citizens of Israel. That’s just about the one thing that Israel and Hamas agree on. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/34 "2023-12-27T04:17:23Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > It isn’t a choice between a or b, it’s both. Oh goodie. > [@Chronos](#): > > > [@Dissonance](#): > > > > Oh wait. Is this going to be another anti-Zionist thread > > Again: Netanyahu is not all Zionists. Both he and Hamas are rotten, but they’re not the only choices, here. For context, [the OP’s last thread on Israel](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/133), which ended with him insisting “One state is the only compromise solution that takes into account both parties’ claims in regard to Palestine” despite being told too many times to bother counting that neither side considers that an acceptable solution. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/35 "2023-12-27T04:20:41Z")
Palestine _could_ have been a country in 1948, had the Arab leadership (it wasn’t even really _up to_ the Palestinians yet) been able to stomach the idea of Jews living unmassacared next door. But I guess we are ignoring that. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why are you assuming all Zionists agree with Netanyahu? We don’t. “Zionist” is being used as a slur, here. Like most slurs, don’t expect the usage to be logical. Of course, there is nothing pejorative about believing that the Jewish people have the right to live freely in their homeland. I think that is a right that all people should enjoy, including Palestinians, which is why I am in favor of a two state solution, which makes me a Palonist in addition to a Zionist, I guess. But the fact that some people see nationalism for the _Jewish_ people specifically as worthy of scorn is _quite_ telling. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/36 "2023-12-27T04:21:42Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Oh wait. Is this going to be another anti-Zionist thread or turn into another “One state is the only compromise solution that takes into account both parties’ claims in regard to Palestine” thread? Do you really need to ask a question that we all already know the answer to? ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/37 "2023-12-27T04:30:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Of course it is. It has its own government and its population are not citizens of Israel. No it’s not. It’s government is a prison self-administration. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/38 "2023-12-27T04:30:45Z")
Years ago I read an NYT op-ed that advocated for a one-state solution. It was eloquently written and seemed like a reasonable proposal. Then I read the byline and saw that the author was Moammar Gadhafi, which caused me to change my mind about the sensibility of the idea altogether. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/39 "2023-12-27T04:31:33Z")
It’s the solution they need. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194/40 "2023-12-27T04:31:58Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > It’s government is a prison self-administration. That’s the fault of its government. If Hamas wanted to improve the lives of its citizens and stop the destruction, it could do so today by surrendering. But Hamas doesn’t care about its people or about stopping the destruction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-deradicalization-of-the-palestinians/995194.md?page=3)