# The devil and pop culture **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 20, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418 "2007-10-20T22:13:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/1 "2007-10-20T22:13:46Z")
It was mentioned in the current IMHO thread about anachronisms that “the devil rules hell”. Where did this idea first come from? It’s not Christianity. Satan is the chief prisoner in hell, not the warden. Why does pop culture, including cartoons and movies, always portray the devil as the ruler of hell? Where’s the pitchfork (torture device) come from? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/2 "2007-10-20T22:36:02Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] Where’s the pitchfork (torture device) come from? [/QUOTE] Well, it’s a tool used to move hay and such; I expect that some fellow thought it would be a cool tool for demons to use to shovel sinners into the proper pool of boiling blood or whatever. Given that it’s not some exotic implement, it could have been thought of by anyone; I doubt the originator of the idea can be traced. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/3 "2007-10-20T22:39:55Z")
There are several passages of the New Testament in which Satan or the devil is described as having this world in his power. In addition, Mt 12:26, Mk 3:23, and Lk 11:18 each describe Satan as having a kingdom of his own. Given that he is described as having power and movement and possessing a kingdom. it was a pretty natural conclusion that his kingdom was Hell. Satan is not described as being bound until Rev 20:2, so until that final battle, he is apparently free to wander about like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour, not chained in hell. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/4 "2007-10-20T22:41:40Z")
Milton [Paradise Lost](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost) Text [here](http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_1/index.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/5 "2007-10-20T22:42:42Z")
I think that Satan has his ‘pitchfork’ because several Pagan dieties had tridents. Poseiden had a trident. Shiva, the Hindu ‘destroyer’ God had a trident, and he was one of the S-named Gods; Set, Saturn, Shaitan. I’m not sure if Angra Mazda was represented with a trident, so that might be more coincidence than a direct correlation of dieties across cultures. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/6 "2007-10-20T22:43:41Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] It’s not Christianity. Satan is the chief prisoner in hell, not the warden. [/QUOTE] I’m struck by the authoritative nature of this statement to such an extent, that I’d be curious to know its origin. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/7 "2007-10-20T22:46:45Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] …It’s not Christianity. Satan is the chief prisoner in hell, not the warden. Why does pop culture, including cartoons and movies, always portray the devil as the ruler of hell? Where’s the pitchfork (torture device) come from? [/QUOTE] Well in Bible camp we learned (among other crap) that Satan rules the _world_. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/8 "2007-10-20T23:14:34Z")
[QUOTE=BMax] I’m not sure if Angra Mazda was represented with a trident, so that might be more coincidence than a direct correlation of dieties across cultures. [/QUOTE] Angra Mainyu. The good god in Zoroastrianism was Ahura Mazda. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/9 "2007-10-20T23:21:04Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Angra Mainyu. The good god in Zoroastrianism was Ahura Mazda. [/QUOTE] Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/10 "2007-10-21T01:43:32Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] It was mentioned in the current IMHO thread about anachronisms that “the devil rules hell”. Where did this idea first come from? It’s not Christianity. [/QUOTE] I don’t think that’s a universal Christian belief, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Peanuthead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peanuthead/32/360_2.png) [@Peanuthead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanuthead)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2007, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/11 "2007-10-21T03:53:08Z")
I think Mr. Waits nailed it. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Below\_Me](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/da6949/32.png) [@Below\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Below_Me)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2007, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/12 "2007-10-21T05:31:49Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] It was mentioned in the current IMHO thread about anachronisms that “the devil rules hell”. Where did this idea first come from? It’s not Christianity. Satan is the chief prisoner in hell, not the warden. Why does pop culture, including cartoons and movies, always portray the devil as the ruler of hell? Where’s the pitchfork (torture device) come from? [/QUOTE] You can’t think Satan is bound in hell, the rest of the Judaic/ Christian mythology depends on Satan’s free reign on Earth. Who led Eve astray? Who afflicted Lot? Who tempted Jesus in the desert in Luke 4:5: “Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time”. And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give you, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.” Tomndebb are right Satan is not confined in hell until the last battle. As he was the leader of heavens rebellion this made him the defacto leader of the outcast third of the angel population (Matt. 12:24), names him “the ruler of the demons" (he was the highest of all angels). You can blame [Milton’s Paradise Lost](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost) and Dante’sThe Divine Comedy for making embellishments on the biblical myth that have been used in most of the current pop retelling of the myth. Don’t worry though John Milton died blind and impoverished and Dante Alighieri died in exiled so I guess you can take comfort in that . ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/13 "2007-10-21T22:27:24Z")
I understand that Satan rules the world. What I don’t get is where the idea that he rules _hell_ comes from. TomnDebb, those lines only say that he has a kingdom. It says nothing of that kingdom being Hell. That kingdom could (should?) be the Earth, or just his legion of demons. I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume it’s hell. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/14 "2007-10-21T22:53:53Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] What I don’t get is where the idea that he rules _hell_ comes from. [/QUOTE] Milton puts words in Satan’s mouth: “It is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven.” ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/15 "2007-10-21T22:59:59Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] I understand that Satan rules the world. What I don’t get is where the idea that he rules _hell_ comes from. TomnDebb, those lines only say that he has a kingdom. It says nothing of that kingdom being Hell. That kingdom could (should?) be the Earth, or just his legion of demons. I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume it’s hell. [/QUOTE] If he rules a bunch of minions on Earth, couldn’t he rule them in Hell too? Even if he’s the chief prisoner, he’s still supposed to be the biggest / scariest / strongest guy there, isn’t he? Who else would be in charge? Regarding **Paradise Lost** , my high school English teacher told us that Milton got the basic plot of a war in heaven with Satan/Lucifer rebelling against God and being cast down into Hell as punishment from apocryphal books of the Bible, rather than just making up the whole story by extrapolating it from Isaiah 14:12-17ish, which goes: > [@](#): > > **12.** How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! _how_ art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! > > **13.** For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: > > **14.** I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. > > **15.** Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. > > **16.** They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, _and_ consider thee, _saying, Is_ this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; > > **17.** _That_ made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; _that_ opened not the house of his prisoners? Is that true? Is the **Paradise Lost** story contained in the Apocrypha, or was my English teacher just on crack[sup]1[/sup] again? [sup]1[/sup]This is a totally unfair characterization. He was eventually busted for using POWDERED cocaine, not crack. I apologize for my slander. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-pop-culture/423418/16 "2007-10-22T00:36:34Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] I understand that Satan rules the world. What I don’t get is where the idea that he rules _hell_ comes from. TomnDebb, those lines only say that he has a kingdom. It says nothing of that kingdom being Hell. That kingdom could (should?) be the Earth, or just his legion of demons. I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume it’s hell. [/QUOTE] You did not ask whether there was a strictly logical explanation based on any specific denomnation’s theology. You asked where the concept originated. **Below Me** and **chorpler** have fleshed out the development a little bit. The development of apocalyptic literature (with a few foreshadowings in Isaiah and some development in Ezekiel), really hit its stride with Daniel and the period 200 B.C.E. through 150 C.E. saw dozens of apocalyptic books written, first by Jews and later by Christians. The Revelation of John is the only one that made it into the New Testament, but there were many more, a few of which we still have in whole or in part. Among the traditions that those authors called upon (and enlarged upon) in order to manipulate the imagery in their works were extensive depictions of either heaven or hell. Some of those descriptions made it into the popular culture even when the work was not included in the canon or the works, themselves, were lost. The passages of Scripture to which I pointed would have been interpreted, in the early church, in light of the themes common in the apocalyptic literature.