# The devil and the fiddle **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 15, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838 "2006-09-15T14:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mittu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@mittu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mittu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/1 "2006-09-15T14:46:53Z")
What is the origin of the relationship between the devil and the fiddle? I remember an episode of Futurama where the devil wagers a golden fiddle against a human soul (or something) and today heard a song on the radio telling the tale of the devil and some guy having a fiddle contest. I can’t recall any more specific occasions but I seem to have it in my head that the devil is often associated with playing the fiddle. Why is this the case? Is the competition over the golden fiddle invented by the song or does the story go back further? ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/2 "2006-09-15T14:59:34Z")
I don’t have a definitive answer, but 19th century violin virtuoso Nicolo Paganini was so good, that there was a rumor that he had sold his soul to the devil in exchange for his remarkable ability. He did nothing to dissuade the rumor, and even behaved in ways that might encourage it. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/3 "2006-09-15T15:07:40Z")
The song you heard was probably _The Devil Went Down to Georgia_ by Charlie Daniels. Other than that, I got nothing but speculation…there is the old saying about Nero fiddling while Rome burned, and I think some have called Nero an/the antichrist…maybe a tie in there somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![mittu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@mittu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mittu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/4 "2006-09-15T15:15:25Z")
I managed to find this which might be the source of the musical duel. Looking about on the internet there certainly is a strong link between the devil and the fiddle with the fiddle being referred to as “the devil’s own instrument”. > [@](#): > > Violinist Ju Young Baek stood before the group of music lovers and introduced the first piece, a sonata for violin and piano known as Il Trillo del Diavolo — The Devil’s Trill. Italian Baroque composer Giuseppe Tartini wrote the sonata after having a dream in which the Horned One appeared at the composer’s bedside to bargain for the man’s soul. Feeling cocky, Tartini challenged the devil to a musical duel and was then astonished at the beauty of the devil’s sonata and the skill with which he played. Evidently waking before he had to pay up, Tartini wrote his piece in an effort to replicate what he heard in his dream. Had the devil shown up with, say, a trombone, we might not have this masterpiece today. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/5 "2006-09-15T15:16:09Z")
There was a devilish fiddler in the film version of **The Devil and Daniel Webster** , [1941](http://www.morethings.com/fan/devil_and_daniel_webster.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/6 "2006-09-15T15:18:52Z")
\ [http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2005/8/16moe.html](http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2005/8/16moe.html) Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/7 "2006-09-15T15:20:28Z")
Oh yes, a deal with the Devil is a very old folktale theme. > **[Deal with the Devil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_with_the_Devil)** > > A deal with the Devil (also called a pact with the Devil, Faustian bargain, or Mephistophelian bargain) is a cultural motif exemplified by the legend of Faust and the figure of Mephistopheles, as well as being elemental to many Christian traditions. According to traditional Christian belief about witchcraft, the pact is between a person and the Devil or another demon, trading a soul for diabolical favours, which vary by the tale, but tend to include youth, knowledge, wealth, fame and power. > I... ---
**Author:** ![mittu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@mittu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mittu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/8 "2006-09-15T15:26:50Z")
Theophilus of Adana looks to be a likely source of the “deal with the devil” story but doesn’t answer the original question of why the devil is so frequently associated with playing the fiddle. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/9 "2006-09-15T15:28:27Z")
There’s Saint-Saen’s _Danse Macabre_ as well … ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/10 "2006-09-15T15:32:30Z")
In [Crossroads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads_(1986_film)), it was a guitar. ---
**Author:** ![MandoJohnny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@MandoJohnny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandoJohnny)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/11 "2006-09-15T15:40:38Z")
Here is an excerpt from an old-time fiddle site: "They called the instrument ‘the devil’s box’ because some thought it was sinful to play one. Sometimes in recent years, people would be tearing down old log cabins to get at the logs and they would find hidden in the wall an old beat-up fiddle. At first they puzzled about this, but then people explained that the man who lived there was once a fine old-time fiddler, but that in later years he had gotten religion. In his zeal, he became convinced that he must turn his back on his old life, and especially that devil’s instrument, the fiddle "After all, the fiddle was for good times and strong drink. Look at the old tunes: you gave the fiddler a ‘dram’, and you heard tunes like ‘Devil’s Dream’ and ‘Devil in the Woodpile,’ ‘Hell Among the Yearlings’ and ‘Hell Broke Loose in Georgia,’ ‘Hell and Scissors’ and ‘Hell Bound for Alabama.’ And didn’t one take the rattles of a serpent-the rattlesnake-and put them in the fiddle to improve the tone? “The evidence was strong, and many newly saved fiddlers took their instruments and smashed them against the wall. But others, unable to part with the heirlooms they had devoted so much of their lives to, quietly dropped them behind the walls of the cabins and kept quiet, hoping perhaps that some day in the future, in a kinder and more tolerant age, someone would find them and let them be heard again.” BTW, the thing about the rattlesnake rattles in fiddle is true, some fiddlers and mandolin players still do it. some think it works, some just see it as indulging a superstition. As one who plays music with a lot of fiddlers, I will also opine that in an old-time stringband, fiddlers tend to be the prima donnas of any group and can be somewhat dictatorial. The “devil” tag might well apply to some of them! ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/12 "2006-09-15T15:51:54Z")
[QUOTE=CookingWithGas] In [Crossroads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads_(1986_film)), it was a guitar. [/QUOTE] I enjoyed that when I saw it long ago. I wonder if it has held up to the test of time… I may have to rent it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/13 "2006-09-15T17:47:19Z")
I was intrigued by this question, because I wasn’t aware of any particular connection between the devil and fiddles (apart from Paganini’s story, already mentionned by a previous poster, but this isn’t exactly part of a traditionnal corpus of tales). My take on the matter : generally speaking partying, dancing, etc… was considered rather sinful, and people enjoying it too much as putting their souls at risk. Thus, not surprisingly, the devil quite often tried to claim the souls of people who partaked too much in these activities, hence were already on the way to hell. For instance, the archetypal tale of the young woman seduced at a dance parlor by an attractive man who turns out to be the devil. Musicians, and more generally entertainers were of course part of this crowd endangering their immortal soul. Not only were they directly involved in the local parties, but it was their main activity. They sort of encouraged others to take part in this frowned upon activity (that could also lead to other sinful behaviors, like drinking, having sex, etc…). They didn’t really “work” (as in : they weren’t breaking their back in the fields as a god-fearing christian should). Finally, they had an alternative lifestyle (in many tales, when something happens to a musician, it’s at night on the road when he comes back from the village where he performed. Good people shouldn’t be on the roads in the middle of the night). Finally, he had a peculiar and unusual talent, and a talent that influenced others (making them dance), that could easily be associated with magic. As a result, musicians often appear in popular tales (for instance the common tale of the musician “hired” or rewarded by leprechauns or some similar creatures to entertain them while they dance). And so do musical instruments, often instruments with magical properties. Look at the famous piper of Hamelin, for instance. So, why specifically the fiddle? At first, as I said, I was perplexed. Then I remembered a tale involving a fidle player and the devil (in this tale, the fiddle player can’t help playing his instrument while the devil drives him to a cliff and a certain death, until he manages, at the last moment, to invoke the Virgin Mary). And I remembered too an essentially identical tale involving a bagpipes player, from a region where, not surprisingly, bagpipes were a traditionnal instrument. So, my guess is the following : there’s no particular and universal relationship between the devil and the fiddle. On the other hand, there’s commonly in tales a relationship between the devil, folk musicians and their instruments. And the instrument mentionned in such tales is whatever instrument that happens to be the most popular in the area where the story was told at the time when it used to be told (I would mention that folk tales, when they have not been “fossilized”, are generally adapted to the story teller’s public, by changing names, locations, animals, items involved, etc… to something familiar to the audience and that their last versions often date back to the 19th century). So, I suspect that this devil/fiddle association merely reflects the local popularity of the fiddle, probably 150 years ago or so. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/14 "2006-09-15T19:34:43Z")
Don’t know the connection between Satan and the fiddle? You’ve obviously never listened to a child taking violin lessons. What? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/15 "2006-09-16T00:57:04Z")
The Futurama episode took the “golden fiddle” idea directly from the song. I’d never heard any other references before. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/16 "2006-09-16T04:20:22Z")
BTW, [Daily Geek News Videos - UGO](http://www.ugoplayer.com/music/thedevilwentdowntogeorgia.html) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/17 "2006-09-16T04:27:09Z")
The Christian image of the devil is based on the pagan god Pan, who was usually pictured playing the pipes, or sometimes the lyre. After these instruments went out of fashion, he had to finf something new. Why the fiddle? Because you can dance around while playing it ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/18 "2006-09-16T04:46:51Z")
I remember the Paganini reference: I first learned about it from one of those "banned " black & white horror comics. I once fell into a drunken argument with a University of Wisconsin music professor over the issue. Years later, cast adrift from the military, I put Paganini aside and found a more relevant “devil duels with a fiddle” work in **Igor Stravinsky’s** _Soldier’s Story_. Like a lot of veterans, I could find its message of “you have no right to recreate what you left behind, now that you’ve returned” to be true. Sadly, the recording in my collection has Vanessa Redgrave hamming it up as the devil; but an amimated film version exists with Max Von Syndow as a world-weary devil. Its ending, where everything is taken away from the protagonist Joseph, is perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/19 "2006-09-16T04:54:53Z")
Violin, n. An instrument to tickle human ears by friction of a horse’s tail on the entrails of a cat. ~ Ambrose Bierce ~ ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838/20 "2006-09-16T06:52:49Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] The song you heard was probably _The Devil Went Down to Georgia_ by Charlie Daniels. [/QUOTE] Or the remake by Primus, which has this [very cool video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NecUwKc1-c). As for the connection, Luicifer is said to be a musician in the bible - Ezekiel 28:13 seems to imply he played the pipes like **Peter Morris** said of Pan. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-and-the-fiddle/372838.md?page=2)