# The Devil Tormenting Sinners. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595 "2019-03-05T21:46:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SigMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@SigMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SigMan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/21 "2019-03-18T14:16:36Z")
It’s a good question. > **[Is Satan’s Real Name Lucifer? Or Should We Call Him Satan?](https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/is-satans-real-name-lucifer-or-should-we-call-him-satan/)** > > There’s a lot of misunderstanding about Satan, his person, his name and his works. What is his real name?  Should we call him "Lucifer?"   ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/22 "2019-03-18T14:30:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > From what religion did you get this from? I don’t think I’ve ever heard this version before. I haven’t heard it with a “St”, but that Satan is also known as Lucifer (lightbringer; in several languages it means match as in firestick) or Luzbel among many other names and that he’s a fallen angel (or rather, the boss of the fallen angels) is pretty much standard Christian theology. Or demonology, rather, because the one thing The Black Angel has never been considered is a god, much less a God. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/23 "2019-03-18T14:50:32Z")
> [@GinoC](#): > > My favourite part is where the Jury of the Damned is rounded out by the starting lineup of the 1976 Philadelphia Flyers. It made total sense. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/24 "2019-03-18T14:55:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > From what religion did you get this from? I don’t think I’ve ever heard this version before. All is explained in the documentary series **Lucifer**. ---
**Author:** ![SigMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@SigMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SigMan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/25 "2019-03-18T14:58:46Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I haven’t heard it with a “St”, but that Satan is also known as Lucifer (lightbringer; in several languages it means match as in firestick) or Luzbel among many other names and that he’s a fallen angel (or rather, the boss of the fallen angels) is pretty much standard Christian theology. Or demonology, rather, because the one thing The Black Angel has never been considered is a god, much less a God. That’s my mistake there. I thought angels names started with the st for saint like saint Peter. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/26 "2019-03-18T15:00:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It’s a mis-depiction. Hell is where Satan himself will be suffering as well. Well yeah. But he has seniority. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/27 "2019-03-18T15:00:42Z")
It just that I don’t think I’ve ever heard the term _St._ Lucifer before. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/28 "2019-03-18T15:10:22Z")
An atheist dies and goes to hell. The devil welcomes him and says:”Let me show you around a little bit.” They walk through a nice park with green trees and the devil shows him a huge palace. “This is your house now, here are your keys.” The man is happy and thanks the devil. The devil says:”No need to say thank you, everyone gets a nice place to live in when they come down here!” They continue walking through the nice park, flowers everywhere, and the devil shows the atheist a garage full of beautiful cars. “These are your cars now!” and hands the man all the car keys. Again, the atheist tries to thank the devil, but he only says “Everyone down here gets some cool cars! How would you drive around without having cars?”. They walk on and the area gets even nicer. There are birds chirping, squirrels running around, kittens everywhere. They arrive at a fountain, where the most beautiful woman the atheist has ever seen sits on a bench. She looks at him and they instantly fall in love with each other. The man couldn´t be any happier. The devil says “Everyone gets to have their soulmate down here, we don´t want anyone to be lonely!” As they walk on, the atheist notices a high fence. He peeks to the other side and is totally shocked. There are people in pools of lava, screaming in pain, while little devils run around and stab them with their tridents. Other devils are skinning people alive, heads are spiked, and many more terrible things are happening. A stench of sulfur is in the air. ## Terrified, the man stumbles backwards, and asks the devil “What is going on there?” The devil just shrugs and says: “Those are the christians, I don´t know why, but they prefer it that way” Yes, it is a joke, but I think it is meaningful in this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/29 "2019-03-18T15:14:23Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I haven’t heard it with a “St”, but that Satan is also known as Lucifer (lightbringer; in several languages it means match as in firestick) or Luzbel among many other names and that he’s a fallen angel (or rather, the boss of the fallen angels) is pretty much standard Christian theology. Or demonology, rather, because the one thing The Black Angel has never been considered is a god, much less a God. It comes from Isaiah 12, a rather vague prophecy/poem referring to a “Hillel Ben-Shachar” (“bright one, son of the dawn”) falling from heaven. For whatever reason, the original Greek translation rendered the name as “Lucifer”. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/30 "2019-03-18T15:20:55Z")
> [@SigMan](#): > > That’s my mistake there. I thought angels names started with the st for saint like saint Peter. Petey isn’t an angel, but the normal kind of saint: a regular guy who is supposed to be in Heaven (in this particular case, for having been the guy JC chose as the first Pope). A couple of angels do get the “saint” stuck in but it’s mainly because they’ve been stuck with patronages, their names used as people names, etc (mainly it’s Michael and Raphael, for some reason Gabriel doesn’t get the “saint” so much); since “saint” means “someone who is in Heaven / in the presence of God / buddy-buddy with the Big Guy”, Satan is pretty much the opposite of one. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/31 "2019-03-18T15:53:51Z")
I prefer Niven’s _Inferno_ to Dante’s. Hell is God’s last ditch effort to get through to people. The excessive punishments are there just to make you wake up and accept God. But, like in kayaker’s joke, most humans think they deserve punishment. Very few “get” it. I found Niven’s Inferno to be one of the most religious books I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/32 "2019-03-18T18:33:27Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > No, it was popular throughout the Middle Ages. Sculptures and paintings were used as a visual aid for teaching: having appropriate punishments was handy for remembering which sins were being referenced. Ah, OK, thanks. The “visual aids” thing does make sense, too; I’m thinking here of all the stained glass windows in churches and such, and the idea of the [Poor Man’s Bible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_Man%27s_Bible). > [@Alessan](#): > > It comes from Isaiah 12, a rather vague prophecy/poem referring to a “Hillel Ben-Shachar” (“bright one, son of the dawn”) falling from heaven. For whatever reason, the original Greek translation rendered the name as “Lucifer”. [Isaiah 14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+14&version=NIV;KJV). It _is_ prophetic-sounding, and verses 12 through 15 do sound like they could be referring to the fall of some celestial entity who challenged God: > [@](#): > > How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! > > For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: > > I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. > > Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. BUT, if you scroll up to verses 3 and 4, and look at the thing in context (and I’ll also use a more modern translation): > [@](#): > > On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, you will take up this taunt against **the king of Babylon** : > > How the oppressor has come to an end! > How his fury has ended! > > …How you have fallen from heaven, > morning star, son of the dawn! > You have been cast down to the earth, > you who once laid low the nations! > > You said in your heart, > “I will ascend to the heavens; > I will raise my throne > above the stars of God; > I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, > on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. > > I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; > I will make myself like the Most High.” > > But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, > to the depths of the pit. > > Those who see you stare at you, > they ponder your fate: > “Is this **the man** who shook the earth > and made kingdoms tremble, > > **the man** who made the world a wilderness, > who overthrew its cities > and would not let his captives go home?” **Emphasis** added. So, the whole “Lucifer / morning star” bit is from a poetic passage that’s explicitly addressed to the king of Babylon; and whoever we’re talking about here is explicitly referred to as a “man”. In context, the whole “O Lucifer, son of the morning!” / “morning star, son of the dawn!” thing is just a mocking reference to the flattering titles given to an Ancient Near Eastern despotic ruler (I think it was the late Isaac Asimov who compared it to calling Louis XIV of France “the Sun King”), the talk about “ascending to the heavens” and “raising my throne above the stars of God” is just the usual overweening pride of an all-too-human wicked and idolatrous king; and the whole “prophecy” is just the usual sort of Old Testament / Tanakh prophecy: “Ooh, our enemies [meaning other big powerful kingdoms; e.g., Babylon] are totally gonna get theirs someday, just you wait! And their big fancy king will go to his grave, like all men must!” Some Christians will probably say that it’s some kind of dual-purpose prophecy, with an immediate temporal or historical meaning (_The Ancient Near Eastern kingdom of Babylon will fall and its king will be laid low_) AND an eschatological meaning (_“Babylon”, that is the Forces of Darkness and Evil, will be destroyed and its King, the Devil, will be cast down into Hell_); but, well, when you start “interpreting” things that way the biblical texts rapidly become sort of Rorschach inkblots, and tell you whatever you want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595/33 "2019-03-18T20:52:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It’s a mis-depiction. Hell is where Satan himself will be suffering as well. The Devil went down to Georgia. Hasn’t he suffered enough? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devil-tormenting-sinners/830595.md?page=1)