# The disappearing Moderate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334 "2011-07-08T17:39:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/41 "2011-07-10T04:56:56Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Look at John McCain. For years, I had to listen to the pablum that if only more Republicans would be like John McCain, you might be able to stand having a drink with us. > > And we nominated John McCain, and they dumped on the guy, who was probably wondering where all those folks who used to praise him when he tormented Bush went. Frankly, before the 2008 campaign McCain was a pretty reasonable Republican. I didn’t agree with him on everything, but he stood up to Bush about torture, helped push through the McCain Feingold act, and generally governed somewhere right-of-center but well to the left of the wingnuts. During the campaign, though, he was forced to take a number of hard-right stands to keep the base energized, not the least of which was picking a nut like Palin as his running mate. The left’s opinion of McCain changed because McCain changed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/42 "2011-07-10T05:21:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But long term this moves “the new middle” farther and farther Right. People tend to think that the right approach must always be between the two positions being represented. The Democratic position is usually last cycle’s middle and other side is farther and farther Right. Thus the new middle gets consistently shifted Rightward. Enough so that “the middle” is now “conservative” - smack dab between the Democrats mostly moderate positions and certainly moderate self labeling and the looney tune Far Right that gets all the press. Those of you who are the moderate conservatives who used to vote Republican might not get a GOP White House, but you do end up with someone who seriously respects and listens to your POV and is willing to compromise with them to very great degrees. Because they ran to the middle which is now conservative by default. > > Now as a radical moderate (okay, slightly Left of current “center”) who reliably votes Democratic (except once, and that was against Blago … I went Green that year) I have no problem with having such a moderate in charge, but the shifting of the middle farther Rightward, and the diminishment of those who feel they are in the middle, is, I think, worrisome for the future of my moderate desires. Not necessarily. The political center isn’t the average of who runs - it’s the average of who gets elected. The Republicans, by going conservative and self-marginalizing themselves, are allowing the Democrats to take power as a moderate-liberal party. So the center of the Democratic Party has moved right but the center of the country has moved left. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/43 "2011-07-10T05:22:04Z")
Indeed. If the McCain of today could appear on _The Daily Show_ as casually as the McCain of 2007, he’d be a serious contender still. Instead, he lunged to the dark side and there’s no way back. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/44 "2011-07-10T06:21:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > On that note, here’s [why the GOP should nominate Obama in 2012.](http://www.salon.com/news/2012_elections/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/06/21/lind_obama_republican) Great post, **BrainGlutton**. On the topic of Obama being good for conservatives (and that the Bush-Cheney Administration _should_ have been the best thing that ever happened for liberalism) let me repeat a link to the [This Modern World cartoon](http://www.salon.com/entertainment/comics/this_modern_world/2010/02/01/this_modern_world/story.jpg), also found at [salon.com](http://salon.com). > [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > The Birth Certificate thing was largely a self-inflicted wound,… I thought Republicans disparaged “blame the victim” prattle. (And, BTW, I do wonder what you are “recovering” from?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/45 "2011-07-10T06:25:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I thought Republicans disparaged “blame the victim” prattle. Funny, I thought they _liked_ blaming the victims, except on those occasions when they were claiming to _be_ the victims. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/46 "2011-07-10T18:49:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not necessarily. The political center isn’t the average of who runs - it’s the average of who gets elected. 😕 I thought it was the average (or median) of public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/47 "2011-07-10T19:48:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 I thought it was the average (or median) of public opinion. Not really. Public opinion decides who gets elected but it doesn’t enact laws and make court decisions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/48 "2011-07-10T19:55:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not really. Public opinion decides who gets elected but it doesn’t enact laws and make court decisions. Hm. Well, if you define the “center” in terms of public opinion, then, looking at the [Pew Political Typology,](http://people-press.org/2011/05/04/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology/) I would put it about where the Post Moderns are. Where would it fall, I wonder, if the survey group were limited to elected officials? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/49 "2011-07-10T20:05:43Z")
Far too often, “moderate” is a fake, a disguise for apathy and/or an inability to choose, or simply a refusal to choose. Democracy is not the most efficient form of government, it is not the most progressive, nor is it the most conservative, it is simply the most just. And the price is high, the price is placing all power in the hands of people who may or may not deserve it, preserve it, or even truly desire it. In a word, us. In three words, We, the People. It is the determination to be ruled by a vast mob of fools rather than an elite cadre of fools. And you have to trust it, you have to have a secular faith, without even a magical sky pixie to underwrite it, only your trust in people who have clearly demonstrated that they are not nearly as smart as you. We live in interesting times. Keep the faith, baby. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/50 "2011-07-19T22:40:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Democracy is not the most efficient form of government, it is not the most progressive, nor is it the most conservative, it is simply the most just. And the price is high, the price is placing all power in the hands of people who may or may not deserve it, preserve it, or even truly desire it. In a word, us. In three words, We, the People. It is the determination to be ruled by a vast mob of fools rather than an elite cadre of fools. Nobody is in favor of mob rule (your words), not even the mob. The US is a republic in which one function of government is to prevent the mob, or anyone else, from taking away people’s natural rights. As to the OP, I think the way debate is conducted by the establishment has led to polarization. I don’t mean Shields versus Brooks on the PBS Newshour, I mean organizations paying bloggers, commenters, demonstrators, etc. to provoke the other side and turn debates into exchanges of insults, “gotchas”, the scandal of the day, and presenting extreme examples as typical and vice versa when it suits you. Example: if you think illegal immigrants should be able to become citizens, you’re a traitor, but if not, you’re a racist. No middle ground. At least that’s how it is online. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/51 "2011-07-19T23:05:05Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Nobody is in favor of mob rule (your words), not even the mob. The US is a republic in which one function of government is to prevent the mob, or anyone else, from taking away people’s **natural rights.** :rolleyes: Please don’t ever use that fatuous phrase again. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/52 "2011-07-20T01:05:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Err…that is by David Brooks. A long time and ardent supporter of the right and much reviled by liberals. We prefer to be called libtards. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/53 "2011-07-20T01:07:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > From your cite - > If the GOP were becoming less representative of the electorate at large, one would expect them to have lost in 2010. > > They also make the perfectly legitimate point that political identifications are not immutable. Possibly some proportion of those who would otherwise identify as “moderate” saw that a big-spending liberal like Obama and his cohort in Congress is what the New York Times thinks of as a “moderate” - and ran screaming in the other direction. > > Regards, > Shodan The 2010 election was mostly won due to turnout differences, that is my understanding. Conservatives tend to fare better in midterms, in 2010 they were more motivated than liberals and moderates, and people tend to vote against one party rule (which we pretty much had at the time). The election of 2012 should be slightly dem in my view because turnout will be more even across the board. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/54 "2011-07-20T02:15:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Far too often, “moderate” is a fake, a disguise for apathy and/or an inability to choose, or simply a refusal to choose. Democracy is not the most efficient form of government, it is not the most progressive, nor is it the most conservative, it is simply the most just. And the price is high, the price is placing all power in the hands of people who may or may not deserve it, preserve it, or even truly desire it. In a word, us. In three words, We, the People. It is the determination to be ruled by a vast mob of fools rather than an elite cadre of fools. > > And you have to trust it, you have to have a secular faith, without even a magical sky pixie to underwrite it, only your trust in people who have clearly demonstrated that they are not nearly as smart as you. We live in interesting times. Keep the faith, baby. I think the main advantage of democratic government is it’s the form of government that is most subject to correction. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/55 "2011-07-20T02:30:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think the main advantage of democratic government is it’s the form of government that is most subject to correction. Which makes it the form of government most stable and resilient. (Not that it **never** self-destructs, but compare it to all the others.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/56 "2011-07-20T03:30:45Z")
I identify as a liberal now, rather than as a moderate, because the conservatives have shifted too far to the right, so that what was previously in the middle is now on the left. When I’m (slighly) more liberal than the Democratic candidate, I can’t in good conscience call myself moderate. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/57 "2011-07-20T22:08:43Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I identify as a liberal now, rather than as a moderate, because the conservatives have shifted too far to the right, so that what was previously in the middle is now on the left. > > When I’m (slighly) more liberal than the Democratic candidate, I can’t in good conscience call myself moderate. Reagan wouldn’t win a GOP nomination now for over a dozen reasons. People like Ford and Nixon would be center left now. I wonder how far it is going to go in this direction. Income inequality is becoming a serious issue, I don’t know how much longer large percentages of hte public will support conservative economic policy. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/58 "2011-07-21T13:13:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Please don’t ever use that fatuous phrase again. Uh, have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? You do know what they mean by “certain unalienable rights,” don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334/59 "2011-07-21T14:11:10Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Uh, have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? You do know what they mean by “certain unalienable rights,” don’t you? Just because Jefferson and the Continental Congress bought into the concept of “natural rights” – or purported to, for political purposes – does not make it any less bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-disappearing-moderate/588334.md?page=2)