The disparity between islamic cultures and western ones.

[Tamerlane]

*Originally posted by adaher *
http://www.iabolish.com/today/features/sudan/overview1.htm

These governments, and especially the current National Islamic Fundamentalist government, have used and continue to use war methods or weapons such as slavery, Arabization, Islamization, enthnic cleansing, aerial bombardment and man-made famine to either decimate or subjugate the African people of the Southern Sudan and Nuba Mountains. The National Islamic government has even gone as far as to declare “Jihad”, an Islamic Holy war against the people of the South and the Nuba Mountains, who it considers as infidels and who must be totally eradicated or brought under the banner of Arabism and Islamism.

This is a decent example, the Sudanese government being run by a stunningly brutal and inept Islamist-leaning kleptocracy. However it has as much or more to do with racism as it does with Islamic biogtry ( both of which pre-date thwe current government in this region ).

http://www.hrw.org/reports/world/mauritania-pubs.php

The campaign to eliminate black culture in Mauritania, orchestrated by the white Moor rulers, peaked in the late 1980s and early 1990s and continues today. Mauritania’s Campaign of Terror documents the range of human rights abuses that the black Africans have suffered in Mauritania. It shows that the most egregious violations — such as massacres, torture, and slavery — have been accompanied by more insidious forms of de facto discrimination against the black Africans, aimed at ensuring their marginalization from the rest of society and depriving them of their fundamental human rights.

This is much weaker and doesn’t support you contention at all, really. As Coll noted and this report does not contradict, the tension here is ethnic, not religious.

To turn to your previous post:

*Originally posted by adaher *
I’ll concede the first point. But I take issue with the rest of your post.

Basically you’ve given explanations, plausible ones at that, for each of the conflicts. That still does nothing to disprove what I said about most of the Muslim world being in conflict with outsiders, as well as internally with different sects and races. In every case there is a surface justification for the fighting, but to my eyes it shows a pattern of racist violence directed at other races and cultures and religions. And it’s consistent and widespread.

Actually his rebuttal was fairly decent. I would have made an even stronger one re:Nigeria where the religious violence mostly manifests itself along ethnic lines - religion per se is only a single component in what is in part tribalism. The Libya/Chad dispute, the Berber issue, and Mauritania, as noted, are non-examples of your thesis, as they are disputes internal to almost wholely Muslim populations. Ethnic issues ( and actually pretty much entirely political in Chad, to the best of my understanding ). The violence in Cote D’Ivoire is a result of a geopolitical powerplay, mostly, at least initially, promulgated by the ruling Christian minority.

I’ll disagree with Coll slightly ( though I’m treading on murky ground here, as he knows the country far better than I ) and agree that the Coptic problem seems a bit more of a serious example of pervasive ( if not overwhelming ) religious oppression.

But all in all, I think your argument here is not on absolutely firm ground. Modern Islamism is a serious problem - On that I’ll happily agree. And religion period is the cause of far too much ugly tension in this world. But Islam per se isn’t necessarily the root cause of the world’s ills.

• Tamerlane

[Tamerlane]

*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven *
Let’s try to keep this thread focused on the historic context, rather than go running around looking at modern phenomenon and modern debates, OK? The undeveloped situation in the Moslem world is several centuries old, exacerbated by the oil problem that began a century or more ago. Let’s not get that historic focus off-track by worrying about current politics.

Oops, sorry CK - I missed this.

• Tamerlane

[system]

RE Copts:

Religious discrimination, yes. Oppression, I do not think so. There is oppression in the Southern valley but much of this revolves around clan violence, not state action. Competition for land. 70+ million Egyptians and a million new births a year, but only one narrow river valley.

Aini’t pretty for the future.

I see the CKD note now myself, but I am afraid I can’t accept to let what is essentially bigotry go uncorrected.

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

<< I am afraid I can’t accept to let what is essentially bigotry go uncorrected. >>

You can correct it in another thread. When I said STAY ON TOPIC, dammit, I meant exactly what I said.

This has now gone WAY too far afield for this forum. I am therefore closing this one. If y’all want to make comments ON CECIL’S COLUMN, then you are welcome to start another thread.

I am tempted – sorely tempted – to split this up into two different threads, or to simply delete the posts that are off-topic.

Yes, it was a broad column, but it was not so broad as all that. Just because the word “Crusade” appears in the column does not mean that “Crusader Rabbit” is a reasonable thing to comment on. Just because the word “Muslim” appears in the column does not mean that this is the place to launch topics that belong in Great Debates, or in General Questions, or in IMHO.