# The Domincan Republic is preparing to engage in ethnic cleansing. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698 "2015-06-16T19:37:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/81 "2015-06-17T18:58:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …and the argument now trods a familiar path: having made and lost a legality argument, I suspect we’re going to start hearing about how the law doesn’t define morality, and this action may be legal, but it’s just so wrong and immoral and…and…and wrong. YOU BROUGHT UP THE LAW. The OP was very obviously about morality, referencing perfectly legal but immoral actions like racism. **Grude** , the guy you were responding to, even said “should be illegal,” which is inherently about judging the law by morality. Yes, it is a familiar path. Someone makes a thread about a horribly immoral action. You then try to make it about the law, and then say shit like this to pretend you won. You project your own actions onto others. I could say a lot more, but I honestly want to see if I fight your ignorance here. This is the very thing that so many of us get upset at you about. I will just say there is far more to the moral argument than “it’s wrong because it’s wrong.” Here’s a hint: two thousand people at least are going to die because of this. And none of the 250,000 people actually performed a wrong action–their parents may have, but not them. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/82 "2015-06-17T19:02:15Z")
nm, read that wrong ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/83 "2015-06-17T19:12:50Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Rejecting the notion of racial superiority and the mystical mumbo-jumbo of “blood and soil” citizenship certainly does make the U.S. morally superior. The fact that the Dominican Republic has previously engaged in genocide based on its lack of a similar system and is currently planning on mass expulsions for the same reason is a handy reminder why. It is possible to engage in ethnic cleansing based on a jus sanguinis approach to citizenship, but the vast majority of countries with this system (which includes every country in Europe) do not do this. It’s also possible to have a jus soli system and be horribly racist – the morally superior U.S. system applied only to whites until 1868. This says nothing about whether the particular actions in The Dominican Republic are wrong, just that it’s not the particular type of citizenship law that is causing the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/84 "2015-06-17T20:18:07Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > You are factually correct, but missing the larger picture. The fact that the U.S. rejects the archaic European notion of inherited racial citizenship is a fundamental pillar of why we are the superior country. Other countries’ refusal to join us in modernity is, while a true fact about their law, a sign of their backwardness. The fact that we have a _jus soli_ system is more an accident of history than anything. I mean, I’m in favor, but let’s not pretend we have it because of our Superior Morality. It’s because the drafters of the 14th Amendment were sloppy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/85 "2015-06-17T22:37:12Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > YOU BROUGHT UP THE LAW. The OP was very obviously about morality, referencing perfectly legal but immoral actions like racism. **Grude** , the guy you were responding to, even said “should be illegal,” which is inherently about judging the law by morality. But he also made a factual claim about the law’s effects, **BigT** , and it was to that factual claim that I responded. To refresh your memory: > [@grude](#): > > Are you actually reading the links, these people HAVE citizenship RIGHT NOW, it is being TAKEN AWAY by a new constitution passed five years ago. This is retroactive legislation, which should be illegal. Notice that I don’t engage his claim about retroactive legislation that should be illegal. Instead, I replied: > [@Bricker](#): > > Factually incorrect. > > Read the Times article. > [@](#): > > Yes, it is a familiar path. Someone makes a thread about a horribly immoral action. You then try to make it about the law, and then say shit like this to pretend you won. You project your own actions onto others. No, **BigT**. There are very few people on this board whom I regard as reliable moral compasses. So as far as I’m concerned, a claim about a horribly immoral action is simply posturing. But factual claims can – and were – rebutted. > [@](#): > > I could say a lot more, but I honestly want to see if I fight your ignorance here. This is the very thing that so many of us get upset at you about. “Many of you,” aghast at the idea that right-wingers want to impose their morality upon you, are perfectly happy to impose your morality upon others. Again, though, since I don’t regard “many of you” as particularly keen judges of morality, I don’t remotely care what aspects of this, or any, case you feel are immoral. But I will continue to correct “many of your” factually inaccurate claims. And I notice in passing how important it is for “many of you”" that “many of you” share your opinions. I assume safety in numbers substitutes for a well-formed conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/86 "2015-06-18T00:49:48Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Alright well then educate me. I would like to read up on a country that denies citizenship to people born and raised in country. I’m not above reading. Just point me in a good direction. The [United Arab Emirates.](http://gulfnews.com/opinion/thinkers/give-expats-an-opportunity-to-earn-uae-citizenship-1.1234167) Even being born in the UAE to a mother who is a UAE citizen isn’t good enough to transmit UAE citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/87 "2015-06-18T00:57:20Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > It’s not racism. The DR is simply practicing the principle of citizenship used by most sovereign states worldwide. The DR has no obligation to provide for the welfare of some other nation’s citizens. Gee, maybe they could come teach us that lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/88 "2015-06-18T01:26:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Many of you,” aghast at the idea that right-wingers want to impose their morality upon you, are perfectly happy to impose your morality upon others. Again, though, since I don’t regard “many of you” as particularly keen judges of morality, I don’t remotely care what aspects of this, or any, case you feel are immoral. > > But I will continue to correct “many of your” factually inaccurate claims. > > And I notice in passing how important it is for “many of you”" that “many of you” share your opinions. I assume safety in numbers substitutes for a well-formed conscience. More lectures on moral relativism from the guy defending ethnic cleansing. Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/89 "2015-06-18T01:27:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The fact that we have a _jus soli_ system is more an accident of history than anything. I mean, I’m in favor, but let’s not pretend we have it because of our Superior Morality. It’s because the drafters of the 14th Amendment were sloppy. The choice not to change that system in the century and a half since was the correct one and has been, more than any other single policy decision, the reason that American immigrants assimilate and succeed, as opposed to forming a permanent explosive underclass as in Europe/everywhere else. In the U.S., immigrants become American. In the Dominican Republic, anyone who has a French name gets driven over the border (or, in the past, dumped in a mass grave). It’s incredibly obvious which system is better. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/90 "2015-06-18T02:54:26Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > More lectures on moral relativism from the guy defending ethnic cleansing. Yawn. Wow. That’s what you got out of Bricker’s posts? Yawn, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/91 "2015-06-18T05:56:46Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > I am slightly suspicious of why this has become such a cause celebre among left-wing circles – there are plenty of similar atrocities across the world right now – but it’s no real mystery why right-wingers who seek to end birthright citizenship for Mexican immigrants’ children are seeking to minimize what’s happening here. I’d assume liberals are worried about this being a “bad influence” and it could increase the popularity of such measures here. Gotta head it off at the pass, I s’pose. Too many powerful people make way too much money off Mexican immigrants for there to be any real change, though. The border’s gonna be wide open for the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/92 "2015-06-18T06:01:49Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Is that a retroactive law? And does Italy provide other means of automatically giving citizenship to those who were born/raised in the country?[URL=“[Italian nationality law - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Italian_nationality_law#Acquisition_of_citizenship)”] Your quote is not about having nationality from birth, but about one of the ways of acquiring it: if you’ve been born in Italy and lived there from birth, you have a way to acquire citizenship. The citizenship is active from the day your paperwork is finished, not from the day you were born. It is not automatic, it is not instantaneous, and it is not retroactive. The US does not have 100% jus sanguinis: the child of an American citizen is not automatically an American citizen. Is that wrong? It’s US law. Does the US have a procedure to attain nationality based on being the grandchild of an American expatriate, when the parents of the immigrant were not Americans themselves? Other countries do; I don’t know if the US does. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/93 "2015-06-18T06:17:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …and the argument now trods a familiar path: having made and lost a legality argument, I suspect we’re going to start hearing about how the law doesn’t define morality, and this action may be legal, but it’s just so wrong and immoral and…and…and wrong. Wait… what? I’m all for pre-emption, but to dismiss moral concerns is basically psychotic, right? You’ve done a find job of arguing your side of the case on legal _and also moral_ grounds. But the legal questions are indeed separate from moral questions, though there’s some tricky overlap. > [@Bricker](#): > > No, **BigT**. There are very few people on this board whom I regard as reliable moral compasses. So as far as I’m concerned, a claim about a horribly immoral action is simply posturing. But factual claims can – and were – rebutted. You may believe that you believe this, but your participation in explicit moral reasoning belies this. I’m guessing the underlying issue is that you are an A level lawyer and a C level philosopher\* and you are playing from your strengths. Which is ok, until you denigrate moral conversation. - Not much of an insult really. I flatter myself, thinking that I’m a C+ philosopher. That may be too generous. I sure as heck don’t reach the B+ level. Arbitrary yardsticks, I know. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/94 "2015-06-18T12:55:23Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > - Not much of an insult really. I flatter myself, thinking that I’m a C+ philosopher. That may be too generous. I sure as heck don’t reach the B+ level. Arbitrary yardsticks, I know. As long as I’m carrying a B average… ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/95 "2015-06-18T13:29:47Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Alright well then educate me. I would like to read up on a country that denies citizenship to people born and raised in country. I’m not above reading. Just point me in a good direction. How about American Samoa? We’re probably not going to be deporting them any time soon, but native-born Samoans aren’t currently being granted American citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/96 "2015-06-18T14:11:14Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m guessing the underlying issue is that you are an A level lawyer and a C level philosopher\* and you are playing from your strengths. Which is ok, until you denigrate moral conversation. “Even so much as impotently expressing your disapproval of genocide on a message board is ‘imposing your morality on others’” gets a passing grade from you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/97 "2015-06-18T14:16:39Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > “Even so much as impotently expressing your disapproval of genocide on a message board is ‘imposing your morality on others’” gets a passing grade from you? I think we need to start requiring people to be fully licensed to use the term “genocide” around here. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/98 "2015-06-18T14:20:44Z")
If genocide is outlawed, only outlaws will practice genocide! Um, er, … ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/99 "2015-06-18T14:24:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think we need to start requiring people to be fully licensed to use the term “genocide” around here. This is what happened the last time the Dominican government started getting antsy about whether “Haitians” (which actually means “blacks” (which actually means “people who speak French”)) were secretly living in their country: > **[A Genocide That Still Haunts Haiti-Dominican Relations](https://www.ibtimes.com/parsley-massacre-genocide-still-haunts-haiti-dominican-relations-846773)** > > Seventy-five years ago, under Dominican dictator Rafael Leonidas Trujillo, as many as 20,000 Haitians were massacred. What’s the argument here – it’s just mass expulsions and property deprivation based on race, so we’re not allowed to care yet? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698/100 "2015-06-18T14:46:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Nobody brought up anchor babies. I hate anchor babies. They don’t hold in coral for shit. Seems to me its much much easier on average to have proof that you were born and lived your life in the country your in than it is to prove your ancestors were born somewhere else so they will let you move there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-domincan-republic-is-preparing-to-engage-in-ethnic-cleansing/722698.md?page=6)