# The Doors on Ed Sullivan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 11, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628 "2016-07-11T02:52:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sweepkick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@sweepkick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweepkick)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/61 "2016-07-17T09:50:14Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Alternate universe scenario: > > Ed Sullivan: Boys, I’d like you to perform your big hit “Light My Fire” on this week’s show, but I’m not happy about that line about getting high. You can’t say that on my show. How about changing it to “Girl, we couldn’t get much better”? Robbie, you wrote the song, right? How does that sound to you? > > Robbie Krieger: Well, Mr. Sullivan, I wouldn’t mind myself, but I don’t think our singer would be comfortable singing that line. Besides, it doesn’t rhyme. > > Ed Sullivan: Hmm. All right, we’re going to have to forget that song. What about your other single, “Break on Through”? That’s not about getting high, is it? > > John Densmore: Umm, actually, Mr. Sullivan, Jim does sing “She gets high! She gets high!” in the middle of that one. > > Robbie Krieger: Yeah, the record company cut it out, but Jim always sings it live. > > Ed Sullivan: Oh, for God’s sake. [Picks up a copy of the Doors’ album] “Soul Kitchen”? “The Crystal Ship”? Those sound too weird. “20th Century Fox”? I’m not giving them a free plug. “Alabama Song”? Sounds controversial. “Back Door Man”? Forget it! Here we go: “The End.” You may think I’m an old square, but I know what that means in hippie talk. It’s like “way out” and “groovy.” That’s the sort of thing the kids like to hear. Does _that_ one have “get high” in the lyrics? > > Ray Manzarek: Uhhh…no, sir. > > Ed Sullivan: Good. Do it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/62 "2016-07-17T12:01:51Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > Interesting. Personally, I never understood how such a straight-faced guy like Ed Sullivan could host anything. Here’s a column from Mark Evanier’s blog on why Sullivan was successful for so long. 1. He desperately wanted to be in show business, even just a host, and wasn’t just content with being a newspaper columnist. Competition like Steve Allen had other talents and could always find another tv project. Ed couldn’t 2. He paid well and would do book other acts the manager had to get the one he wanted 3. He wasn’t above making threats to never book people if they didn’t cooperate but saved it for the end of his pitch 4. He cared about signing autographs and going out to highly visible restaurants with an act after the rilly big shew to be seen by the public 5. In an era when many homes had only one TV he made sure there was something for everybody. His philosophy was to start big [http://www.newsfromme.com/2014/02/09/fifth/](http://www.newsfromme.com/2014/02/09/fifth/) But yeah, I remember seeing him and thinking “where did CBS get this stiff from”? I suppose once you get established your defects can become endearing traits. But I recently saw the complete Sullivan shows that are on the third and fourth Beatles appearances and it wasn’t that good. I’m not even sure if the Beatles were that good, the sound was a lot thinner than their records. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/63 "2016-07-17T12:13:55Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Was it Sullivan himself who wanted to bowdlerize “Light My Fire,” or was it the network’s standards and practices department? TV networks were very conservative in those days, with or without Ed Sullivan. This is a good point. The accounts I’ve heard said it was an executive who made the demand. Sullivan certainly wouldn’t have the time to do it personally. But it still could have been Sullivan’s idea. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/64 "2016-07-17T14:53:22Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > You have been noted many, many times for talking like this to other posters, so this is a warning now. DO NOT get this harsh with other posters outside of the Pit. Either report their posts if you think they are mod actionable or resist replying back to them if you can’t help yourself from resorting to smack talk like this. I have been angered by replies that seem difficult to describe, but are quite effective at irritating me–taunting me about allegedly being out of touch, for example. And it’s the kind of thing that would be hard to put into words if I intended to prepare a report. In this case, I support Ed Sullivan inasmuch as it is the program he is hosting and he has a right to expect performers to honor their agreement. The replies I get when I express this suggest a libertarian, I’ll-do-as-I-damn-well-please attitude which is supposed to elicit admiration from the audience while Sullivan is merely USED. I see no reason to conclude otherwise. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/65 "2016-07-17T14:57:04Z")
[hijack] **dougie** , I’m curious. When these things upset you, why don’t you take it to the Pit? It seems this sort of thing happens probably more frequently than you’d like, so why not just hash it out there and avoid all this? And I’m asking respectfully. I’m not trying to make fun or call you out. If you’d prefer to not answer, I understand. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/66 "2016-07-17T15:08:41Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I have been angered by replies that seem difficult to describe, but are quite effective at irritating me–taunting me about allegedly being out of touch, for example. And it’s the kind of thing that would be hard to put into words if I intended to prepare a report. In this case, I support Ed Sullivan inasmuch as it is the program he is hosting and he has a right to expect performers to honor their agreement. The replies I get when I express this suggest a libertarian, I’ll-do-as-I-damn-well-please attitude which is supposed to elicit admiration from the audience while Sullivan is merely USED. I see no reason to conclude otherwise. ☹ You pretty clearly don’t comprehend what people are trying to say on a very fundamental level. You might try clearing your head and rereading. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/67 "2016-07-17T15:17:02Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > You pretty clearly don’t comprehend what people are trying to say on a very fundamental level. You might try clearing your head and rereading. There is no problem with me understanding WHAT is being said. The issue is DISAGREEMENT. What you would have to do is convince me that Morrison and his cohorts are justified in their cavalier attitude toward the agreement they made with Sullivan. That is YOUR problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/68 "2016-07-17T15:20:07Z")
Let’s drop this hijack. **dougie** take any issues with your warning to ATMB. Take any issues with other posters to the Pit. Everyone else, please drop it. Thanks. > [@faithfool](#): > > [hijack] > > **dougie** , I’m curious. When these things upset you, why don’t you take it to the Pit? It seems this sort of thing happens probably more frequently than you’d like, so why not just hash it out there and avoid all this? And I’m asking respectfully. I’m not trying to make fun or call you out. If you’d prefer to not answer, I understand. > [@hajario](#): > > You pretty clearly don’t comprehend what people are trying to say on a very fundamental level. You might try clearing your head and rereading. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > There is no problem with me understanding WHAT is being said. The issue is DISAGREEMENT. What you would have to do is convince me that Morrison and his cohorts are justified in their cavalier attitude toward the agreement they made with Sullivan. That is YOUR problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/69 "2016-07-17T15:32:43Z")
Sorry. I misguidedly thought the suggestion might be of help. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/70 "2016-07-17T15:49:00Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > By the time the Doors appeared on Ed Sullivan, Mr. Ed was obsolete and irrelevant. He was useful only for ridicule, and could easily be ignored by the record-buying teen public, much like Lawrence Welk, Myron Floren, or Perry Como. Sullivan’s rejection of the Doors only increased their record sales and his refusal to let them on the show again only decreased his influence in the show-biz world. A bad career move for Ed, but he was done anyway. I was around then and I don’t believe this. The Doors appeared in 1967. Sullivan was still a premiere place to see rock bands. There weren’t all that many other opportunities. The Smothers Brothers were making them available, but they were right after Sullivan so why not watch both? Shows like Shindig and Hullabaloo and Where the Action Is had been canceled. Dick Clark remained, but he wasn’t prime time or album-oriented. Those brought up in today’s world just can’t imagine how much the barest glimpse of these bands were critical to fans. You saw them almost never. You couldn’t even hear them very much. Rock radio was exclusively Top 40 stations in 1967. There probably weren’t a half dozen “freeform” FM stations in the country playing album tracks - and who had an FM radio to begin with? Sullivan was appointment viewing in 1967. Neither he nor The Doors could know that his influence on music would wane in future years. It sure wasn’t obvious then. Here’s the weird part. I stopped watching Sullivan in 1968 when I went to college. Not because I didn’t want to see the bands he featured - I stopped watching the Smothers Brothers too - but because I lived in a dorm. There were no TV sets in the dorm. There was one set for public use on campus, in the Student Union. I’m pretty sure that was the norm for most colleges everywhere. College students stopped watching Sullivan because they didn’t have access. How did that affect his ratings and influence? No idea. But the growth of college radio playing music unavailable elsewhere certainly did. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/71 "2016-07-17T15:59:27Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > There is no problem with me understanding WHAT is being said. The issue is DISAGREEMENT. What you would have to do is convince me that Morrison and his cohorts are justified in their cavalier attitude toward the agreement they made with Sullivan. That is YOUR problem, not mine. Wait a minute. You are spending part of your finite time on this planet arguing over an incident that had no effect on anybody 50 years ago? Fine, I hereby state for the record that Jim Morrison was a Bad Person when he lied to the representatives of the Ed Sullivan Show about changing the lyrics to “Light My Fire.” Happy? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/72 "2016-07-17T16:16:01Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > But yeah, I remember seeing him and thinking “where did CBS get this stiff from”? I suppose once you get established your defects can become endearing traits. But I recently saw the complete Sullivan shows that are on the third and fourth Beatles appearances and it wasn’t that good. I’m not even sure if the Beatles were that good, the sound was a lot thinner than their records. Could’ve been all those screaming teenagers. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/73 "2016-07-17T16:49:35Z")
Sullivan was also a guy ahead of his time who had some vision. His peers are all in the ash heap of history, yet we are arguing about him even now. He knew that TV was important and they didn’t. He also personally saw that the Beatles made it onto his show, which led in no time to their world domination. How can you hate either one of these people, Morrison or Sullivan, to the point where you are invested in it? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/74 "2016-07-17T17:43:07Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Wait a minute. You are spending part of your finite time on this planet arguing over an incident that had no effect on anybody 50 years ago? Fine, I hereby state for the record that Jim Morrison was a Bad Person when he lied to the representatives of the Ed Sullivan Show about changing the lyrics to “Light My Fire.” > > Happy? Whoopee. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/75 "2016-07-17T17:45:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Could’ve been all those screaming teenagers. 😉 Don’t blame the teenagers, Guinastasia; TV is no great shakes when it comes to sound. It sure wasn’t in 1967. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/76 "2016-07-17T17:59:57Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Whoopee. :rolleyes: Given the amount of time and effort you’ve put in on your nonsensical posts in this thread, I’d have thought you’d be overjoyed to have your meaningless opinion recognized. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/77 "2016-07-17T18:10:16Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Somebody would have thrown a really big shoe at him. A really big shoe. Ha! Good one. ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/78 "2016-07-17T18:23:11Z")
I’ve always been inclined toward a benign opinion of Ed Sullivan, given the fact that he was courageous friend and ally to Black entertainers at a time when they desperately needed one. But, prompted as I was to do a bit more reading on Ed’s biography, I’ve learned that he reneged on performing his final show for CBS, after he’d learned of the network’s plans to cancel the show. Yep, he took his ball and went home. So now, as per guidelines established in this thread by **dougie monty** , I hereby declare Ed Sullivan a fraud. Or wait, maybe, people are complicated and imperfect, and we should try to judge not, lest we be judged, and all that shit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/79 "2016-07-17T18:37:14Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Given the amount of time and effort you’ve put in on your nonsensical posts in this thread, I’d have thought you’d be overjoyed to have your meaningless opinion recognized. I have been wearied lately, and not just by the grief I got on this thread, Silenus. My reaction was more a tired sigh than anything else. Then again you could call it a Pyrrhic victory. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/80 "2016-07-18T21:01:18Z")
> [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](#): > > I hereby declare Ed Sullivan a fraud. Ed Sullivin was a total twat. Always trying to force artists into doing unethical things like changing their art to suit his and his conservative audiences beliefs just so he could make more money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628.md?page=5)