# The Doors on Ed Sullivan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 11, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628 "2016-07-11T02:52:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/101 "2016-07-20T19:39:25Z")
So I’m the only one who thought this was about the entrance to the theatre? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/102 "2016-07-20T19:47:17Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > So I’m the only one who thought this was about the entrance to the theatre? Yeah, but **TriPolar** was much more confused than you ;). > [@TriPolar](#): > > This again? When Ed gives you the chance to switch doors your odds are better if you switch. Your first choice had a 1 in 3 chance of winning the big prize. There is a 2 in 3 chance of the big prize being behind one of the doors you didn’t pick. You already have been shown a door that you didn’t pick that doesn’t have the big prize behind it, so the remaining door has a 2 in 3 chance that the big prize is behind it. Really guys, we’ve been over this so many times. > > Couldn’t help myself when I saw the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/103 "2016-07-21T17:24:42Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That’s like riding a pogo stick through a minefield and hoping you will always land on un-mined ground. Some people are dare devils and get a thrill out of that sort of thing. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I don’t care. Breach of agreement is breach of agreement, no matter how big and important you think you are; and this arrogant act guaranteed that Sullivan would never have The Doors back on his show. And as Morrison said, they didn’t care – they already DID the show, and that was it. And of course it was arrogant. Morrison WAS arrogant. (And remember – Sullivan ALSO cancelled their upcoming appearances. Unless the contract specifically said “you must NOT sing this lyric”, they had more reason to complain than he did. I believe it was more of a verbal request. Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise.) ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/104 "2016-07-21T17:46:23Z")
There IS such a thing as verbal contracts, you know. My law course professors would chide me if I did not remember that! ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/105 "2016-07-21T17:54:40Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > There IS such a thing as verbal contracts, you know. My law course professors would chide me if I did not remember that! The point of this is that none of us know exactly what “verbal contract” there was. All we know is that Ed did not want certain lyrics used, the Doors used them anyway. None of us really know that Morrison actually agreed to not use the original lyrics, and none of us know what Ed actually asked, or what he set forth as the consequences. That’s why verbal contracts are the weakest possible leg to stand on. We do know that no one has ever produced a written agreement that showed Morrison and the Doors went back on an agreement. So, really, there is nothing here. In the rear view mirror of hindsight, the Doors won by not being willing to compromise their art, and Sullivan lost by coming off as a cranky old dude. The Court of Public Opinion has spoken. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/106 "2016-07-21T18:55:08Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > There IS such a thing as verbal contracts, you know. My law course professors would chide me if I did not remember that! No shit. But WAS it in the phrase of a “verbal contract”, or just, “We’d like it if you wouldn’t this lyric, could you use this instead? Great!” Or, “We request that you yadda yadda yadda”. You keep saying that they “breached their contract”, but you have yet to prove that was so. Oh well. In the end, none of it amounted to a hill of beans. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/107 "2016-07-21T18:57:14Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > The point of this is that none of us know exactly what “verbal contract” there was. All we know is that Ed did not want certain lyrics used, the Doors used them anyway. None of us really know that Morrison actually agreed to not use the original lyrics, and none of us know what Ed actually asked, or what he set forth as the consequences. I guess no one bothered to watch \*\*Accidental Martyr’\*\*s [link back in post #4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9op57CqyDQE)? I know eyewitness testimony is fallible and all, but I would think Ray’s account is about as good as it’s going to get as to what happened. It seems the “verbal contract”, such as it was, was brought up at the last minute, extremely thin, and never agreed to by Morrison. For all of Jim’s faults, I can’t be too hard on him for not complying with a last-minute demand to change a harmless lyric. And there’s way too much discussion and vitriol on this one. People are strange. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/108 "2016-07-21T19:03:06Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Morrison had no intention of sticking to the agreement with Sullivan. Fraud is fraud. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > As I see it, there is a thin line between philosophy and ethics. Obviously Morrison never mustered the maturity to recognize that line and respect it. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Breach of agreement is breach of agreement, no matter how big and important you think you are; and this arrogant act guaranteed that Sullivan would never have The Doors back on his show. So what? That is not offered as snark, rather as an honest question (one my high school U.S. history teacher often posed to us, to see if we grasped the significance of what he had just taught). So Morrison was an immature jerk. So he acted disrespectfully toward Sullivan. So Sullivan had a right to be upset. So what? Really. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/109 "2016-07-21T19:09:10Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > I guess no one bothered to watch \*\*Accidental Martyr’\*\*s [link back in post #4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9op57CqyDQE)? I know eyewitness testimony is fallible and all, but I would think Ray’s account is about as good as it’s going to get as to what happened. If that account is accurate, then Manzarek said he would “think of something,” and no one explicitly promised not to say “higher.” And what they thought of, after a brief discussion, was to say “higher” anyway. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/110 "2016-07-21T19:12:49Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > And there’s way too much discussion and vitriol on this one. People are strange. I saw what you did there. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/111 "2016-07-21T19:26:30Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > I guess no one bothered to watch \*\*Accidental Martyr’\*\*s [link back in post #4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9op57CqyDQE)? I know eyewitness testimony is fallible and all, but I would think Ray’s account is about as good as it’s going to get as to what happened. It seems the “verbal contract”, such as it was, was brought up at the last minute, extremely thin, and never agreed to by Morrison. For all of Jim’s faults, I can’t be too hard on him for not complying with a last-minute demand to change a harmless lyric. > > And there’s way too much discussion and vitriol on this one. People are strange. You’re right, I had missed that when reading through the thread. Thanks for bringing it back into the discussion. Actually just reiterates how absolutely worthless verbal agreements are. And it doesn’t even seem like there was any agreement, just a vague “we’ll think about it” at best. You’re right, people are strange. Sometimes I feel like an actor out alone in these kinds of threads. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/112 "2016-07-21T19:34:35Z")
Don’t worry - I’m sure somebody will throw you a bone soon. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/113 "2016-07-21T19:42:50Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > So I’m the only one who thought this was about the entrance to the theatre? Not the entrance doors but some set of doors from the set. It reminded of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer puts the Merv Griffin set in his apartment. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/114 "2016-07-21T19:43:10Z")
**dougie** acts as if Morrison ran up to him on the street and yelled “FUCK!” right into his face. He really seems to be taking all of it rather personally. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/115 "2016-07-21T19:45:35Z")
I don’t think **dougie** ever _got_ rock and roll. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/116 "2016-07-21T20:58:54Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I don’t think **dougie** ever _got_ rock and roll. Well, if Morrison ’ s defiant attitude is what it’s all about, I don’t see that I’ve missed much. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/117 "2016-07-21T21:15:18Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Well, if Morrison ’ s defiant attitude is what it’s all about, I don’t see that I’ve missed much. Now I’m curious. **dougie** , you mentioned in another recent thread that you’re 67. That means that you were 18 (give or take a year, depending on when your birthday is) when the Doors appeared on Sullivan’s show. That age is smack in the center of the age range for heavy listeners of popular music (and has been since the birth of rock, if not before). It also means that you were 18-ish during the Summer of Love, Woodstock, etc., and a lot of your contemporaries were undoubtedly very much into that music, and that cultural phenomenon. Did you listen to music back then? If so, what did you listen to? Do you listen to music today? If so, what? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/118 "2016-07-21T21:35:53Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Now I’m curious. > > **dougie** , you mentioned in another recent thread that you’re 67. That means that you were 18 (give or take a year, depending on when your birthday is) when the Doors appeared on Sullivan’s show. > > That age is smack in the center of the age range for heavy listeners of popular music (and has been since the birth of rock, if not before). It also means that you were 18-ish during the Summer of Love, Woodstock, etc., and a lot of your contemporaries were undoubtedly very much into that music, and that cultural phenomenon. > > Did you listen to music back then? If so, what did you listen to? Do you listen to music today? If so, what? Your appraisal is accurate. Actually, I have heard quite a lot of the popular stuff from 1967-- people such as The Beatles, Otis Redding, the Fifth Dimension, Diahann Carroll… but I did not go to dances or other social events (I had acne very bad then and was cruelly judged because of it). I liked stuff by Frank Sinatra, Peggy Lee, Perry Como, Ella Fitzgerald, and so on. I was very distant from my own contemporaries. ( I was born June 10, 1949.) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/119 "2016-07-21T21:58:04Z")
Based on your earlier posts, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing it! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628/120 "2016-07-21T22:02:21Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > There IS such a thing as verbal contracts, you know. My law course professors would chide me if I did not remember that! Verbal contracts aren’t worth the paper they are printed on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-doors-on-ed-sullivan/759628.md?page=7)