# The Douchebag of Liberty has passed on. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859 "2009-08-18T16:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/201 "2009-08-19T19:39:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, but what WORKED in that thread? Lord knows there were plenty of people screaming at me, calling me a bigot and worse, and hurling all sorts of impassioned invective around. > > None of that made me realize I was holding the wrong position. In fact, to the extent it had any effect, it was to dilute the persuasiveness of any reasoned posts made by the same posters that were yelling. Agreed. But that’s now a tangent to a tangent. Let me start over on the topic of the current thread. There’s a very interesting discussion to be had here. I, for one, will happily admit that my opinion of Novak and what he did is vastly lower than my opinion of Ellsberg and what he did. Might I be interested in discussing why that is? Well, I might, or I might not. I mean, I just might not have the emotional energy or the time to engage in such a debate. And (key point) it’s entirely possible for me to hold that position, and not have any real desire to defend it or explain it, WITHOUT being a prima facie hypocrite. But I certainly think there is some interesting discussion to be had. The question is, did your approach to this thread make that discussion more or less likely to actually happen? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/202 "2009-08-19T19:49:53Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The question is, did your approach to this thread make that discussion more or less likely to actually happen? I must say that my initial post seemed pretty non-confrontational, at least to my eyes: short, sweet, and to the point. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/203 "2009-08-19T20:02:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As though there’s some moral failing associated with criminal defense? Seriously? There is _nothing_ in my post to suggest there is some moral failing associated with criminal defense. Approaching every discussion as though you’ve got an overwhelming burden in your favor ignores the reality of most controversies. Your attempt to “craft” every argument in such a manner that you’ve only to disprove your opponent’s argument is reminscent of a child who knows the rules to only one game and thus turns every game into that one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/204 "2009-08-19T20:34:01Z")
[quote=“Bricker, post:202, topic:506859”] I must say that my initial post seemed pretty non-confrontational, at least to my eyesQUOTE] Do you understand \*yet \*why you were so wrong about that? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/205 "2009-08-19T20:34:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I must say that my initial post seemed pretty non-confrontational, at least to my eyes: short, sweet, and to the point. Back in the early days of this board, I remember **Lib** used to toss in similarly short, sweet, to the point remarks that would turn just about any thread into a debate over the first principles of libertarianism. (He’s gotten better. :)) You surely remember those days. In his mind, they were perfectly reasonable and innocuous posts. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/206 "2009-08-19T23:12:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Thanks, I think. 🙂 > > I would only wryly observe that my addiction to reason has thus far made me a reasonably solid conservative on many issues. However, you’re right – I go where reason, and an informed conscience, take me. Really. Reason alone? I Kant imagine that the road to hell is paved with the good intentions of people thinking they are just being logical about the world. The last time I thought hard about a conservative position I held: that gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed, a number of people pointed out the logical flaws and the logical dead end about the position and I changed my mind: I’m now for gay marriage. Because it is logical and the decent thing to do to allow everybody the benefit of the laws. Much conservatism is based on a presumption that existing institutions are good. That might be a wonderful argument for self congratulating conservatives and a cool handicap to have in a debate, but it isn’t a presumption I am willing to give, or as a liberal, to take. The position with the most merit is the one I wish to adopt in any given argument, and that requires an open mind and thorough investigation. Novak was not such a person. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/207 "2009-08-19T23:57:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My initial intent was to, assumption-free, simply discover what she meant by “traitor.” That doesn’t quite ring true. Perhaps you can make it ring true by responding to my question from before: Why didn’t you simply **ask** her what she meant by “traitor”? See, in the absence of an explanation for that, a lot of people seem to be looking at your demonstrated political leanings and making an easy-to-justify connection to the likelihood that your Republican-Spidey-sense started tingling, prompting you to spring into action. 🙂 And the Feynmann story doesn’t strike me as a very good explanation. He at least asked for an explanation before he started drawing analogies. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/208 "2009-08-20T00:44:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If the reader can browse this thread and ask himself, “Why do I think Ellsberg’s a hero and Novak’s a traitor?” he may well reach the correct conclusion: that while he may still regard Novak as a dick, he might not be a traitor. Well, I certainly don’t think of him as having been a traitor. I do think of him as having been all too fucking loyal. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/209 "2009-08-20T02:10:39Z")
Funny. If I said Novak was a traitor and someone demanded to know why I don’t think the same thing about Ellsberg, I’d have to say, “Because I don’t know who the fuck Ellsberg is.” I’d be the first to say I know jack shit about the Vietnam War. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/210 "2009-08-20T02:33:31Z")
**Bricker** , would you consider W. Mark Felt, aka “Deep Throat”, a traitor? Or for that matter, what about Woodward and Bernstein? Hmmmm??? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/211 "2009-08-20T02:49:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Bricker** , would you consider W. Mark Felt, aka “Deep Throat”, a traitor? Or for that matter, what about Woodward and Bernstein? Hmmmm??? Not me. Heroes of freedom, just like Novak. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/212 "2009-08-20T02:49:15Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Bricker** , would you consider W. Mark Felt, aka “Deep Throat”, a traitor? Or for that matter, what about Woodward and Bernstein? Hmmmm??? What classified information regarding the justification for a war did they reveal to the media? **Bricker** is being completely and unfairly attacked here, simply for raising a completely fair comparison. “Traitor” is far too strong a word for either Novak or Ellsberg, but then so is “Hero”. **jsgodess** , now that you’ve read the thread and you know who Ellsberg is, what is your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/213 "2009-08-20T02:56:26Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Not me. Heroes of freedom, just like Novak. In what way was Novak a “hero of freedom”? Please answer precisely, as your usual hand-waving, vague, and “Just so” answers require an answer that, in your view, are attempted mind-reading and are incorrect, though you won’t say why. You can cut all that out by telling me exactly why you believe Novak’s outing Plame makes him a “hero of freedom”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/214 "2009-08-20T02:56:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Novak fits in the same general category. He sought to rebut the accusation of administration negligence And therein lies the critical difference. Novak was not trying to protect the country, he was trying to protect George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/215 "2009-08-20T03:04:56Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > **jsgodess** , now that you’ve read the thread and you know who Ellsberg is, what is your opinion? Still don’t know who Ellsberg is, not enough to have an opinion. ETA: Oh, and I think Novak was a scandal but not a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/216 "2009-08-20T03:05:15Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > In what way was Novak a “hero of freedom”? Please answer precisely, as your usual hand-waving, vague, and “Just so” answers require an answer that, in your view, are attempted mind-reading and are incorrect, though you won’t say why. > > You can cut all that out by telling me exactly why you believe Novak’s outing Plame makes him a “hero of freedom”. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but something tells me you have a preconceived prejudice against my answer. Try this: How about I give you a straightforward answer when you ask a question without being a total dick about it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/217 "2009-08-20T03:11:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That doesn’t quite ring true. Perhaps you can make it ring true by responding to my question from before: Why didn’t you simply **ask** her what she meant by “traitor”? Because I have ben down similar discussion trails about ten thousand times. > [@](#): > > See, in the absence of an explanation for that, a lot of people seem to be looking at your demonstrated political leanings and making an easy-to-justify connection to the likelihood that your Republican-Spidey-sense started tingling, prompting you to spring into action. 🙂 My “demonstrated political leanings?” Wow. I can’t think of too many people on this board that have expressed as even-handed political opinions as I have. I can point to many times I’ve defended Democrats – how many times can you say you’ve defended Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/218 "2009-08-20T03:14:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > How about I give you a straightforward answer when you ask a question without being a total dick about it? In what way does my asking for a precise answer due to my previous experience with you make me a total dick? I see that you have no interest in anything but evading and hand-waving. I’ve no interest in playing that game. Can you, by chance, answer this question? In what way was Novak a “hero of freedom”? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/219 "2009-08-20T03:17:24Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > And therein lies the critical difference. Novak was not trying to protect the country, he was trying to protect George W. Bush. That’s an absolute article of certainty? The evidence admits to no other conceivable explanation? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/220 "2009-08-20T03:22:45Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > In what way does my asking for a precise answer due to my previous experience with you make me a total dick? > > I see that you have no interest in anything but evading and hand-waving. I’ve no interest in playing that game. Can you, by chance, answer this question? > > In what way was Novak a “hero of freedom”? No. . It was a total asshole way to ask a question. I’m not playing a game, either. Seriously. You preface a question like that and expect consideration, you condescending prick? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=12)