# The Douchebag of Liberty has passed on. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859 "2009-08-18T16:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/41 "2009-08-18T18:51:07Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > By his standard, the American Revolutionaries were traitors. After all, any conclusion to the contrary would be based on something other than an objective criteria. Benedict Arnold was _not_ a traitor. He was outraged (OUTRAGED!) that America engaged the assistance of France. Who are we closer to today, England or France? He recognized that the colonies were intensely aligned with England, and his foresight has been justified (oh, except for that pesky skirmish around 1812). ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/42 "2009-08-18T18:51:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > that is, he “disclosed” something that was already public. Just out of curiosity, are there any ‘obligations’ for people like Novak that come into possession of classified information without the appropriate clearance? Are they obligated to keep it secret? For example, if Obama’s secret backer in China accidentally mailed his classified real Kenyan birth certificate to me rather than the White House, am I breaking any laws or being traitorous if I scan a copy of it and forward it via email to everybody I know? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/43 "2009-08-18T18:53:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ellsberg: traitor, with an explanation. That is, he illegally disclosed classified document, with a subjective belief he was acting in the best interests of the country. The problem is that people with security clearances don’t get to make that determination independently; they are generally obligated to keep secret what they agreed to keep secret. > > Novak: traitor, with an explanation. That is, he illegally disclosed classified document, with a subjective belief he was acting in the best interests of the country. The problem is that people with security clearances don’t get to make that determination independently; they are generally obligated to keep secret what they agreed to keep secret. And in his case, it may be that his disclosure was not the first – that is, he “disclosed” something that was already public. > > I don’t think either of them deserve harsh censure, but neither would I call either of them heroes. I’d say the failure of duty was more profound in the Ellsberg case, since he held a security clearance himself. Novak was just a journalist. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/44 "2009-08-18T18:54:18Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Can we agree that neither made his decision in a vacuum; rather each had time to consider whether what he was doing was indeed in the best interests the country? For the purposes of this discussion, sure. I think Ellsberg had considerably more time to reflect than Novak, but I agree no one was facing a decision that required instant response. > [@](#): > > Can we agree that we’ve had ample time to consider whether their respective assessments were correct, and if they weren’t, whether the mistake was borne of ignorance or negligence OR whether it was simply motivated by malice? Yes. > [@](#): > > If so, then what would you say of each? > > Was Elsberg acting in the best interest of the country? Why or why not? > If not, was his mistake born of ignorance or negligence or was it no mistake at all but intentional and malicious? > Same questions re Novack Ellsberg was acting in what he saw as the best interests of the country. But it’s not a given that his actions were in fact in the best interests of the country. As a representative democracy, ultimate sovereignty resides with the people. But it’s not axoimatic to say that the people must be consulted about and approve every tactic and strategy used, especially during war or in foreign policy. Roosevelt lied to get the United States into the war in Europe. He felt it was in the best interests of the country to be in that war, and he was right. But if a 1938 version of Daniel Ellsberg had exposed Roosevelt’s lies, that pre-Ellsberg fellow would undoubtedly have felt he was doing the right thing. If we were to learn now that somebody attempted to expose secret government plans to violate the Neutrality Act in the 1930s, we would probably look upon such an attempt with disdain, because we now generally accept that our entry into the war in Europe was a good thing. We now similarly look upon our involvement in Vietnam as a bad thing. But it’s impossible, and dangerous, to infer license to individuals to act as though they had time machines and could know the consequences of their actions. Ellsberg’s actions were well-intentioned but wrong. Novak fits in the same general category. He sought to rebut the accusation of administration negligence in sending a former Clinton White House aide with no track record in intelligence and no experience in Niger on a fact-finding mission to Africa. He did so (presumably) because he believed the truth of the matter was that Wilson had been sent because of his wife, and that this gave critical context to the story. How can you exalt one guy for following his conscience over the rules while blaming another guy for doing the same thing? So, Novak: well-intentioned but wrong. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/45 "2009-08-18T18:56:48Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > By his standard, the American Revolutionaries were traitors. After all, any conclusion to the contrary would be based on something other than an objective criteria. As the Elizabethan poet commented: \*Treason doth never prosper. What’s the reason? For when it prospers none dare call it treason. \* There will be no meeting of the minds on this: your man is a traitor, my man is a patriot inspired by the noblest of motives, your man bad, my man good, and so on and so forth. The comparison with Ellsberg was interesting and the responses illuminating. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/46 "2009-08-18T18:56:57Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Benedict Arnold was _not_ a traitor. He was outraged (OUTRAGED!) that America engaged the assistance of France. Who are we closer to today, England or France? He recognized that the colonies were intensely aligned with England, and his foresight has been justified (oh, except for that pesky skirmish around 1812). Whatever. People on both sides of the Atlantic saw him as a traitor - he had few friends in England. Polite company there wouldn’t tolerate someone who had sold out his countrymen. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/47 "2009-08-18T18:57:27Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s interesting. I’d heard differently. > > [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18924679/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18924679/) > > I know the thing about the Russians and Cubans maybe having heard about her. But she was still working with a cover ID when \*\*DBoL \*\*did his act of Journalistic trolling. > > Got a link for your assertion that she wasn’t working covertly then? Well, I actually didn’t make that argument. I said we shouldn’t get bogged down in it, and for the purposes of this discussion I accept that Novak was the first to breah the secret. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/48 "2009-08-18T18:58:25Z")
I can see why **Bricker** is doing his best roundabout Douchbag defense dance. It’s actually a tribute to Novak. Just like the traitor pulled Plame out of Rove’s ass to punish Wilson, **Brick** has pulled Ellsberg out of his ass to discipline the OP for daring to call Novak a traitor. Do you think **Bricker** has been waiting to pull that particular turd out of his ass ever since he learned Novak had cancer? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/49 "2009-08-18T19:00:24Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > In that case, Ellsberg is not a traitor, because Vietnam won the war. And the jury is still out on Novak, because the war is still going on. Well, if winning the war -\> exoneration of traitorousness, then Ellsberg was a traitor. But winning a war does not necessarily exonerate traitorous behavior. In practice it does, because it’s always a condition of the peace treaty. Nobody would agree to an end of war where all the victorious instigators were to be tried for treason. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/50 "2009-08-18T19:03:38Z")
> [@](#): > > …Do you think Bricker has been waiting to pull that particular turd out of his ass ever since he learned Novak had cancer? No, I don’t. I think \*\*Bricker \*\*is a man of a deeply conservative bent who is being slowly dragged leftward by his own reason and experience. And, of course, the influence of certain witty and erudite posters who shall remain nameless… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/51 "2009-08-18T19:04:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, I actually didn’t make that argument. I said we shouldn’t get bogged down in it, and for the purposes of this discussion I accept that Novak was the first to breah the secret. Well you did slip it in there twice, so I just wanted to see if you were debating honestly or doing an homage to our dear, departed **DBoL**. You know, I hear a spot opened up at the American Douchebag League. Have you ever considered a career in disingenuous partisan dickery? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/52 "2009-08-18T19:06:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If we were to learn now that somebody attempted to expose secret government plans to violate the Neutrality Act in the 1930s, we would probably look upon such an attempt with disdain, because we now generally accept that our entry into the war in Europe was a good thing. Wrong. We would ignore that inconveniently-truthful somebody as much as possible, and rationalize away our acceptance of a lie based on the success of the war. Cf. the Spanish-American War. But we would NOT call this person a traitor. > [@](#): > > But it’s impossible, and dangerous, to infer license to individuals to act as though they had time machines and could know the consequences of their actions. > > Ellsberg’s actions were well-intentioned but wrong. The “you can’t know the consequences” argument is a rationalization for refusal to act at all. One can make a pretty good estimate, based on one’s faith that we as a people will continue to believe in truth and honor, as to what course of action will be applauded by our descendents, though. Ellsberg thought it through as much as it was possible to think through. To say his actions were “wrong” is to place the letter of the law above all other considerations whatever. While that may be clear to you, it is not so clear to the moral world. > [@](#): > > Novak fits in the same general category. He sought to rebut the accusation of administration negligence in sending a former Clinton White House aide with no track record in intelligence and no experience in Niger on a fact-finding mission to Africa. Now you’re just fucking lying. He sought to divert public attention from the fact, which he knew, that the Niger yellowcake stuff was false, a fact which Wilson was trying to expose. It was NOT due to his belief about who should have been sent. You’re really not better than this, are you? > [@](#): > > He did so (presumably) because he believed the truth of the matter .. > > How can you exalt one guy for following his conscience over the rules while blaming another guy for doing the same thing? You “presume” his motivations but know Ellsberg’s. The facts support neither. And you fucking know it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/53 "2009-08-18T19:08:14Z")
> [@](#): > > …Have you ever considered a career in disingenuous partisan dickery? No fair. If you ask him directly, he will answer you directly. That puts him head and shoulders above the standards set by the real down-home partisan dicks. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/54 "2009-08-18T19:08:27Z")
**Bricker** ’s not disingenuous. His brain really works like that. It’s frustrating if you’re a normal person, who believes that in the pit, you put your own opinion/belief in a post by default. **Bricker** doesn’t. He was born to be a lawyer. His brain really wants to pick apart any argument that supports somebody else’s belief, and searches for precedents that are analogous in order to instruct his questioning. It doesn’t _occur_ to him to post his own position, or perhaps to even _have_ his own position, unless he is explicitly asked for it. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/55 "2009-08-18T19:10:12Z")
I don’t wish brain cancer on anyone. But I will say better Bob Novak than most other people. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/56 "2009-08-18T19:12:48Z")
I still remember a comment he made on Crossfire, telling a high school girl into athletics that she was acting unlady like and only playing sports to appease feminists. A real class act. ---
**Author:** ![Transistor\_Rhythm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Transistor\_Rhythm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Transistor_Rhythm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/57 "2009-08-18T19:18:12Z")
He truly belongs in Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/58 "2009-08-18T19:18:22Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I can see why **Bricker** is doing his best roundabout Douchbag defense dance. It’s actually a tribute to Novak. Just like the traitor pulled Plame out of Rove’s ass to punish Wilson, **Brick** has pulled Ellsberg out of his ass to discipline the OP for daring to call Novak a traitor. > > Do you think **Bricker** has been waiting to pull that particular turd out of his ass ever since he learned Novak had cancer? Don’t worry. No one notices you won’t respond to the question I asked. Keep dodging and weaving. You’re doing great! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/59 "2009-08-18T19:20:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Well you did slip it in there twice, so I just wanted to see if you were debating honestly or doing an homage to our dear, departed **DBoL**. I thought that argument would muddy the waters, and, frankly, I don’t believe it myself. So I mentioned it for the sake of completeness, and am willing to defend it on a theoretical basis, but I don’t buy into it myself. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/60 "2009-08-18T19:22:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How does a man honor his country by aiding it in a dishonorable cause? Well, for one thing, he needs to do it with style, grace, wit, and/or charm. Which rules out Novak, but leaves some wiggle-room for Henry Kissinger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=4)