# The Douchebag of Liberty has passed on. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859 "2009-08-18T16:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/61 "2009-08-18T19:23:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For the purposes of this discussion, sure. I think Ellsberg had considerably more time to reflect than Novak, but I agree no one was facing a decision that required instant response. > > Yes. > > Ellsberg was acting in what he saw as the best interests of the country. But it’s not a given that his actions were in fact in the best interests of the country. > > As a representative democracy, ultimate sovereignty resides with the people. But it’s not axoimatic to say that the people must be consulted about and approve every tactic and strategy used, especially during war or in foreign policy. Roosevelt lied to get the United States into the war in Europe. He felt it was in the best interests of the country to be in that war, and he was right. But if a 1938 version of Daniel Ellsberg had exposed Roosevelt’s lies, that pre-Ellsberg fellow would undoubtedly have felt he was doing the right thing. What lies? It’s clear FDR wanted to nudge us into the war, but he didn’t make Japan attack Pearl Harbor or the Germans sink our transports and escort vessels. Your point about not consulting the people about “every tactic and strategy used” fails in the case of Vietnam because the people were told that the war would not be expanded into Cambodia and Laos, which was a lie, and such an expansion of the war had never been approved by Congress in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/62 "2009-08-18T19:25:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No, I don’t. I think \*\*Bricker \*\*is a man of a deeply conservative bent who is being slowly dragged leftward by his own reason and experience. > > And, of course, the influence of certain witty and erudite posters who shall remain nameless… Do you really think I’m moving leftward? I don’t. I just think that with the Obama administration in power, there’s more opportunity for subjects to arise where my view falls towards the left. I could of course be blind to my own subtle shifts in position, but my best guess is I’m not really moving that much in any direction. Admittedly, there have been several epihany moments here that have moved me left, but I regard those as sudden shifts, not gradual slides. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/63 "2009-08-18T19:27:30Z")
Whether anybody else in the entire fucking world was a fucking traitor or not has nothing to do with the fact that Robert Novak was, and that the country is better off with him dead. When Ellsberg dies, discuss all you want whether he was a fucking traitor or not. In this thread, who gives a microshit? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/64 "2009-08-18T19:30:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You can see from his reply. He defines “patriot” and “traitor” not in terms of love or betrayal of country or ideals, but only in terms of compliance with the technicalities of a particular law. Morality is not a consideration for him, and there is no evidence that he even knows what it is. Only the letter of the lawbooks and the current policy pronouncements of the Republican National Committee and the Vatican matter to him. He has no independent thought of his own except when trying to craft Gotchas like the one here. Looks like somebody’s been taking correspondence courses at the **Der Trihs** School of Hyperbolic Rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/65 "2009-08-18T19:31:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Don’t worry. No one notices you won’t respond to the question I asked. Keep dodging and weaving. You’re doing great! Why bother? You already know the answer: > [@Bricker](#): > > If Novak is a traitor but Ellsberg isn’t, then it’s clear she’s using a subjective definition of “traitor” and I’m willing to bet her definition involves working against politics she believes in. Try imitating the way an honest person would ask the question and you might get an honest answer, instead of the simple dismissal that is more than yours deserves. **Vinyl Turnip** , if you have even a different POV to offer, much less a rebuttal, kindly offer it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/66 "2009-08-18T19:33:41Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > What lies? It’s clear FDR wanted to nudge us into the war, but he didn’t make Japan attack Pearl Harbor or the Germans sink our transports and escort vessels. How about the trade of American destroyers for British bases in the Caribbean and in Newfoundland in 1940 in violation of the Neutrality Act? How about the explicit coordination with British military following the Lend-Lease Act, kept secret from the American people while Roosevelt was promising he wouldn’t send our soldiers overseas? These meetings were kept secret from Congress, for heaven’s sake. How about our occupation of Iceland in 1941? How about the order to American naval vessels to shoot at German subs on sight - in September 1941! Come on. > [@](#): > > Your point about not consulting the people about “every tactic and strategy used” fails in the case of Vietnam because the people were told that the war would not be expanded into Cambodia and Laos, which was a lie, and such an expansion of the war had never been approved by Congress in the first place. Extremely analogous to FDR’s pre-WWII actions. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/67 "2009-08-18T19:41:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How about the trade of American destroyers for British bases in the Caribbean and in Newfoundland in 1940 in violation of the Neutrality Act? Where was the lie? > [@](#): > > How about the explicit coordination with British military following the Lend-Lease Act, kept secret from the American people while Roosevelt was promising he wouldn’t send our soldiers overseas? Granted > [@](#): > > How about our occupation of Iceland in 1941? The British did that. > [@](#): > > How about the order to American naval vessels to shoot at German subs on sight - in September 1941! Cite if true, and again where was the lie? > [@](#): > > Come on. You don’t even know the difference, do you? ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/68 "2009-08-18T19:42:13Z")
He didn’t say it specifically about Bob Novak, but it applies: “I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors.” George H. W. Bush Robert “The Most Insidious of Traitors” Novak 1931 –2009 ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/69 "2009-08-18T19:42:29Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, the difference would be thatthe leak of the Pentagon Papers probably hurt the US more. Yes, let’s be a little more careful about hurting US interests, worthy or not, valid or not, sane or not. :rolleyes: Sorry, I’m having a hard time getting too worked up about that one. BUT, I’m still crying rivers over all the harm that the end of slavery did to the South. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/70 "2009-08-18T19:49:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ellsberg was acting in what he saw as the best interests of the country. But it’s not a given that his actions were in fact in the best interests of the country. Okay, so it’s not a _given_ that Elsberg’s action were in the best interest of the country. So what? Who said it was? Doesn’t change the fact that his actions probably were in the best long-term interests of the country. In fact, with what we know now, it is perfeclty reasonable to conclude so through evaluation. See, the problem with your objective standard is that it is incomplete, failing to account for nuance\* thus rendering the “traitor” verdict the hollow sum of the elements of the offense. Sure, in the strictest sense, Elsberg and Novack were traitors. So were Washington and Jefferson and Hamilton, all having violated the letter of a treason law. \*yes, “nuance,” the bogeyman for those to frightened or indifferent to think. > [@Bricker](#): > > But it’s impossible, and dangerous, to infer license to individuals to act as though they had time machines and could know the consequences of their actions. Are you’re suggesting that Elsberg and Novack had no possible way of assessing the outcome of their decisions? I know it’s common to say “no one can predict the future,” but c’mon, it’s done succesfully all of the time. As a rule, the decisions we make are governed by our assessment of the outcome. When we make a harmful decision based on a poor assesment, we call this a mistake. People who make lots of mistakes will hopefully find themselves less called upon to make important decisions. When we make a harmful decision in spite of a good assessment, we call this a misdeed. It is to be hoped that chronic misdoers are punished. We examine our decisions in hindsight in part to evaluate our forsight. Those with forsight, we call good decision makers. > [@Bricker](#): > > Ellsberg’s actions were well-intentioned but wrong.. Traitorous in the strictest sense, yes; wrong, this is not a _given_. > [@Bricker](#): > > Novak fits in the same general category. Hardly. At best he made a harmful decision based on a poor assesment. At worst he made a harmful decision intentionally. > [@Bricker](#): > > How can you exalt one guy for following his conscience over the rules while blaming another guy for doing the same thing? . Easy, because they are the same thing in only the most superficial and unexamined way. Look beyond the superficial and techinical similarties. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/71 "2009-08-18T19:51:16Z")
I think **Bricker** ’s got a good point. Which is that, despite common usage, the word “traitor” is value neutral. Not all causes are deserving of loyalty, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/72 "2009-08-18T19:53:59Z")
> [@True Blue Jack](#): > > Yes, let’s be a little more careful about hurting US interests, worthy or not, valid or not, sane or not. > > :rolleyes: > > Sorry, I’m having a hard time getting too worked up about that one. > > BUT, I’m still crying rivers over all the harm that the end of slavery did to the South. 😛 And Bricker’s upset that FDR may have been unfair to Hitler… ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/73 "2009-08-18T19:54:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ellsberg was acting in what he saw as the best interests of the country. But it’s not a given that his actions were in fact in the best interests of the country. Okay, so it’s not a _given_ that Elsberg’s action were in the best interest of the country. So what? Who said it was? Doesn’t change the fact that his actions probably were in the best long-term interests of the country. In fact, with what we know now, it is perfeclty reasonable to conclude so through evaluation. See, the problem with your objective standard is that it is incomplete, failing to account for nuance\* thus rendering the “traitor” verdict the hollow sum of the elements of the offense. Sure, in the strictest sense, Elsberg and Novack were traitors. So were Washington and Jefferson and Hamilton, all having violated the letter of a treason law. \*yes, “nuance,” the bogeyman for those to frightened or indifferent to think. > [@Bricker](#): > > But it’s impossible, and dangerous, to infer license to individuals to act as though they had time machines and could know the consequences of their actions. Are you’re suggesting that Elsberg and Novack had no possible way of assessing the outcome of their decisions? I know it’s common to say “no one can predict the future,” but c’mon, it’s done succesfully all of the time. As a rule, the decisions we make are governed by our assessment of the outcome. When we make a harmful decision based on a poor assesment, we call this a mistake. People who make lots of mistakes will hopefully find themselves less called upon to make important decisions. When we make a harmful decision in spite of a good assessment, we call this a misdeed. It is to be hoped that chronic misdoers are punished. We examine our decisions in hindsight in part to evaluate our forsight. Those with forsight, we call good decision makers. > [@Bricker](#): > > Ellsberg’s actions were well-intentioned but wrong.. Traitorous in the strictest sense, yes; wrong, this is not a _given_. > [@Bricker](#): > > Novak fits in the same general category. Hardly. At best he made a harmful decision based on a poor assesment. At worst he made a harmful decision intentionally. > [@Bricker](#): > > How can you exalt one guy for following his conscience over the rules while blaming another guy for doing the same thing? . Easy, because they are the same thing in only the most superficial and unexamined way. Look beyond the superficial and techinical similarties. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/74 "2009-08-18T20:03:03Z")
I just want to say one thing: “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort”. And that doesn’t mean, “anything that comforts our enemies is treason!”, you fucking tards. It means providing actual assistance to the enemies of the United States. So revealing state secrets is not treasonous, unless you hand those state secrets to an enemy of the United States. Publishing state secrets in a newspaper gives those state secrets to the American public. It is absolutely and incontrovertibly wrong to say that the open publication of secret documents is treasonous. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/75 "2009-08-18T20:03:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The British did that. The British occupied Iceland originally, in May of 1940, but in July of 1941, it was turned over to the US, and about 40,000 American troops were stationed on the island. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/76 "2009-08-18T20:08:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I just want to say one thing: > > “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort”. > > And that doesn’t mean, “anything that comforts our enemies is treason!”, you fucking tards. It means providing actual assistance to the enemies of the United States. > > So revealing state secrets is not treasonous, unless you hand those state secrets to an enemy of the United States. Publishing state secrets in a newspaper gives those state secrets to the American public. It is absolutely and incontrovertibly wrong to say that the open publication of secret documents is treasonous. And it may not even be illegal, which is what the Pentagon Papers case showed. So Novak may have been an asshole but there’s no way what he did could be considered treason. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/77 "2009-08-18T20:08:30Z")
> [@bup](#): > > **Bricker** ’s … brain really wants to pick apart any argument that supports somebody else’s belief, and searches for precedents that are analogous in order to instruct his questioning. The Ellsberg comparison didn’t \*exist \* here until he brought it up. That wasn’t an effort to pick apart anybody’s belief, or even to perform “questioning”. There is no reason to see it as anything but yet another of his precious Gotchas. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/78 "2009-08-18T20:09:33Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The British occupied Iceland originally, in May of 1940, but in July of 1941, it was turned over to the US, and about 40,000 American troops were stationed on the island. Okay, but where’s the FDR lie? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/79 "2009-08-18T20:14:31Z")
In regards to the lament in the OP, at least t[he torch has been passed](http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Melissa-Joan-Hart-Joanna-Krupa-Ashley-Hamilton/photo//090817/482/727e31bb40814e7187829a609611db51//s:/ap/20090817/ap_en_ot/us_tv_dancing_with_the_stars;_ylt=AnnATW4JMkjsp23VYJB8EVxY24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5dHFhdG43BHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9yX3RvcF9waG90bwRzbGsDZmlsZS1pbnRoaXN0). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/80 "2009-08-18T20:24:56Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > And Bricker’s upset that FDR may have been unfair to Hitler… No. I’m not remotely upset about FDR; I think he acted correctly. But it’s inescapable that he lied to the American people. So I mention his actions to show that lying to the American people is not a _sine qua non_ of wrongness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=5)