# The Douchebag of Liberty has passed on. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859 "2009-08-18T16:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/81 "2009-08-18T20:36:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Now you’re just fucking lying. I think part of the problem is your liberal use of the word “lying”. Lying necessitates two things: 1) communicating an untruth AND 2) doing so knowingly. Otherwise, the person is just wrong. Even if you think Bricker is wrong, do you KNOW that he made claims KNowing he was wrong? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And you fucking know it. Well, I guess that answers that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/82 "2009-08-18T20:59:37Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So revealing state secrets is not treasonous, unless you hand those state secrets to an enemy of the United States. Publishing state secrets in a newspaper gives those state secrets to the American public. But, whatever the American public knows, America’s enemies know. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/83 "2009-08-18T21:11:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The Ellsberg comparison didn’t \*exist \* here until he brought it up. That wasn’t an effort to pick apart anybody’s belief, or even to perform “questioning”. I don’t know whether I have stopped understanding English, or you are speaking something else, but we are not communicating. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/84 "2009-08-18T21:15:27Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Whether anybody else in the entire fucking world was a fucking traitor or not has nothing to do with the fact that Robert Novak was, and that the country is better off with him dead. > > When Ellsberg dies, discuss all you want whether he was a fucking traitor or not. In this thread, who gives a microshit? That’s not so. To take an example to ridiculous extremes, suppose someone said, “Ellsberg was not a traitor because his disclosure hurt a Republican administration. If he hurt a Democratic administration, THEN he’d be a traitor.” It’s obvious that such a person is using the word “traitor” in a way that wouldn’t be universally accepted. It’s fair, in discussing whether some act constitutes treason, to explore what specifcally makes it treason. It matters, then, to explore how you define “traitor;” and for that it does matter whether others similarly situated are also considered traitors. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/85 "2009-08-18T21:21:09Z")
As far as I’m concerned, Novak was a piece of garbage. He helped the “people in power” to foist a bullshit war on us, “outed” a CIA agent, and got the country into a “thing” about (let’s call them) the “America haters” Wilson and Plame, in order to placate someone else’s hissy fits. I’ll say it slightly differently - he was a piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Jettboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@Jettboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jettboy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/86 "2009-08-18T21:23:15Z")
Like so many dead others of his political leaning; I wouldn’t make a _point_ of pissing on Novak’s grave, but if there wasn’t a restroom nearby, and I _really_ had to go… ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/87 "2009-08-18T22:16:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, whatever the American public knows, America’s enemies know. Yes, but it is settled law that publishing secrets in the newspaper is not treason – except in certain extreme situations. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/88 "2009-08-18T22:26:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think part of the problem is your liberal use of the word “lying”. Lying necessitates two things: 1) communicating an untruth AND 2) doing so knowingly. Otherwise, the person is just wrong. Even if you think Bricker is wrong, do you KNOW that he made claims KNowing he was wrong? Could be you’re just calling him fucking stupid, I suppose. Are you? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/89 "2009-08-18T22:36:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a hijack. I’m attempting to discover how she figures Novak is a traitor to his country. Any reason you couldn’t have just asked the question directly? Or, put another way, why didn’t you just ask the question directly? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/90 "2009-08-18T22:47:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I thought that argument would muddy the waters, and, frankly, I don’t believe it myself. So I mentioned it for the sake of completeness, and am willing to defend it on a theoretical basis, but I don’t buy into it myself. I’ll defend to the death your right to do this, because frankly to do otherwise would be traitorous. Or at least stingy. ---
**Author:** ![plankter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ba0ec/32.png) [@plankter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plankter)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/91 "2009-08-18T22:57:36Z")
The local news station was quick to play a soundbite of Novak defending his outing of Valerie Plame by claiming that lots of people knew she worked for the CIA. I wish they’d mentioned the rest of what The Douchebag of Liberty wrote, exposing the “brass plate” front company in which Plame and other covert agents worked at tracking nuclear and other weapons in Iran. Even if we grant credence to Douchy’s insinuation that “Joe’s wife is a spy!” was a nugget of gossip circulated at Virginia cocktail parties, why did he ‘out’ the front company - one that was actually trying to _prevent_ mass destruction? Or did I just answer my own question? > [@Sampiro](#): > > I don’t wish brain cancer on anyone. But I will say better Bob Novak than most other people. I would bet that death from brain cancer would be more attractive than what happened to the NOC officers suddenly exposed in a hostile country. But I’ll never know, will I? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/92 "2009-08-18T23:06:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For the purposes of this discussion, sure. I think Ellsberg had considerably more time to reflect than Novak, but I agree no one was facing a decision that required instant response. > > Yes. > > Ellsberg was acting in what he saw as the best interests of the country. But it’s not a given that his actions were in fact in the best interests of the country. > > As a representative democracy, ultimate sovereignty resides with the people. But it’s not axoimatic to say that the people must be consulted about and approve every tactic and strategy used, especially during war or in foreign policy. Roosevelt lied to get the United States into the war in Europe. He felt it was in the best interests of the country to be in that war, and he was right. But if a 1938 version of Daniel Ellsberg had exposed Roosevelt’s lies, that pre-Ellsberg fellow would undoubtedly have felt he was doing the right thing. > > If we were to learn now that somebody attempted to expose secret government plans to violate the Neutrality Act in the 1930s, we would probably look upon such an attempt with disdain, because we now generally accept that our entry into the war in Europe was a good thing. We now similarly look upon our involvement in Vietnam as a bad thing. But it’s impossible, and dangerous, to infer license to individuals to act as though they had time machines and could know the consequences of their actions. > > Ellsberg’s actions were well-intentioned but wrong. > > Novak fits in the same general category. He sought to rebut the accusation of administration negligence in sending a former Clinton White House aide with no track record in intelligence and no experience in Niger on a fact-finding mission to Africa. He did so (presumably) because he believed the truth of the matter was that Wilson had been sent because of his wife, and that this gave critical context to the story. > > How can you exalt one guy for following his conscience over the rules while blaming another guy for doing the same thing? > > So, Novak: well-intentioned but wrong. Wilson’s background 1976-78 Naimey, NIGER 1978-9 Togo 1981-2 South Africa 1982-5 Burundi 1986-88 rep. of Congo 1992 -05 Gabon and Sao Tome You would have trouble finding a person with more familiarity in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/93 "2009-08-18T23:17:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Wilson’s background > 1976-78 Naimey, NIGER > 1978-9 Togo > 1981-2 South Africa > 1982-5 Burundi > 1986-88 rep. of Congo > 1992 -05 Gabon and Sao Tome > You would have trouble finding a person with more familiarity in Africa. These “facts” do get into the way. Fortunately, they require no examination since the reasonableness of or motviation for Novak’s decision are irrelevant to the question of whether Elsberg is a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/94 "2009-08-18T23:17:49Z")
Being on the opposite side of a bunch of people who gloat at the painful death of someone over such a petty difference as politics makes me feel pretty good about myself. It’s why I role my eyes over the constant compassion based arguments from the left and grab my wallet. Never has a group of people been more completely full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/95 "2009-08-18T23:18:25Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > I still remember a comment he made on Crossfire, telling a high school girl into athletics that she was acting unlady like and only playing sports to appease feminists. A real class act. Oh awesome - another person who interprets “a real class act” as “a steaming pile of monkey shit!” ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/96 "2009-08-18T23:21:13Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Wilson’s background > 1976-78 Naimey, NIGER > 1978-9 Togo > 1981-2 South Africa > 1982-5 Burundi > 1986-88 rep. of Congo > 1992 -05 Gabon and Sao Tome > You would have trouble finding a person with more familiarity in Africa. How dare you use facts to challenge a propaganda meme! ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/97 "2009-08-18T23:21:56Z")
Novak was no Philip Agee, but he deserved a hell of a lot more heat that he ever took. I would not call Novak a traitor (because I do not think his actions were an attempt to help the enemy), but I do think that at minimum he should forever be remembered as a journalist who went way over the line in is his partisan zeal. If it can be shown (and perhaps it has) that his outing was linked to the death of an agent, then I would advance his membership in the deeper circles of Hell. It disgusted me how the NeoCons defended Novak’s actions - since if the equivalent action had been done by a Left Wing columnist they would have been calling for a noose and a trial in that order. Philip Agee (hero of the _Campus Left_ when I was an undergrad): [CiAcademy.com is for sale | HugeDomains](http://www.ciacademy.com/Documents/SPY_Philip_Agee.html) ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/98 "2009-08-18T23:25:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Being on the opposite side of a bunch of people who gloat at the painful death of someone over such a petty difference as politics makes me feel pretty good about myself. > > It’s why I role my eyes over the constant compassion based arguments from the left and grab my wallet. > > Never has a group of people been more completely full of shit. Thing is this isn’t necessarily about politics, really, unless you’re speaking only for yourself (and let’s face it, you weren’t). Nothing written here will likely impact the lives of anyone truly mourning Novack’s passing, so your self-righteousness is wasted. Novak was a politcal figure who, in additon to being divisive, committed a pretty serious offense in the minds of some. That a discussion of this (probably his most infamous and lasting act) would greet his death and that in the cou8rse of that discussion some invective appear should come as no surprise, but we’ll promise to keep quiet at the wake. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/99 "2009-08-18T23:30:41Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > **Brick** has pulled Ellsberg out of his ass to discipline the OP for daring to call Novak a traitor. Who the fuck are you, Karl Malone? Besides, your utter failure to respond to a valid point with more than trite insults indicates to the poster that the OP is indeed a mental defective. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/100 "2009-08-18T23:37:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Being on the opposite side of a bunch of people who gloat at the painful death of someone over such a petty difference as politics makes me feel pretty good about myself. > > It’s why I role my eyes over the constant compassion based arguments from the left and grab my wallet. > > Never has a group of people been more completely full of shit. Do us a favor sweetie, and shut your whore mouth, kay? 😃 Novak was a terrible person and I, for one, aren’t happy he’s dead, but I’m pretty far from broken up about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=6)