# The Douchebag of Liberty has passed on. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859 "2009-08-18T16:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/121 "2009-08-19T02:35:50Z")
A candidate for this years SDMB Most Successful Hijack Award, though. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/122 "2009-08-19T02:41:31Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Why is anyone wondering if I think Novak is a traitor? I think I was quite clear in my OP what I think on that score. Novak has fuck all to do with someone who I never mentioned and didn’t give a thought to and whose only reason for existing in this thread is to take the heat off of a man who outed a government agent as payback to a political enemy. > > I do not feel the need to play **Bricker’s** moral equivalency game. You all are welcome to it, though. Of course, you don’t. When your knee-jerk, emotional, partisan rants are challenged you like to run away. No surprise at this point. You’re all yap. **Bricker** challenged you and now you handwave as you beat a hasty retreat. Maybe you’re not a complete dummy after all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/123 "2009-08-19T02:45:11Z")
**Bricker** challenged her? When? I must have missed it. Did he do it sometime after the Pentagon Paper hijack? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/124 "2009-08-19T02:52:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > **Bricker** challenged her? When? I must have missed it. Did he do it sometime after the Pentagon Paper hijack? Post #2. That’s why you gotta read the threads. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/125 "2009-08-19T02:54:26Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I do not feel the need to play **Bricker’s** moral equivalency game. You all are welcome to it, though. I for one, will not play that game. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/126 "2009-08-19T03:56:49Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > These “facts” do get into the way. Fortunately, they require no examination since the reasonableness of or motviation for Novak’s decision are irrelevant to the question of whether Elsberg is a traitor. The thread never mentioned Ellsberg. That was BRICKERS hi-jack. The thread was about Novak ,the traitor. Ellsberg had nothing to do with it at all. He did a quick and bad job of shodanizing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/127 "2009-08-19T05:14:44Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Why is anyone wondering if I think Novak is a traitor? I think I was quite clear in my OP what I think on that score. How could we, you never even mentioned his name. :dubious: I have never met a poster with a less appropriate username. ---
**Author:** ![Library\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cab0a1/32.png) [@Library\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Library_Boy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/128 "2009-08-19T05:24:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A candidate for this years SDMB Most Successful Hijack Award, though. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > **Bricker** challenged her? When? I must have missed it. Did he do it sometime after the Pentagon Paper hijack? > [@gonzomax](#): > > The thread never mentioned Ellsberg. That was BRICKERS hi-jack. The thread was about Novak ,the traitor. Ellsberg had nothing to do with it at all. He did a quick and bad job of shodanizing. When did pit screeds become a sacred thing that must be kept on the pure path? And what is being lost by the “hijack”, a bunch of “yeah, what a douchebag” posts? Such a loss. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/129 "2009-08-19T05:28:07Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The thread never mentioned Ellsberg. That was BRICKERS hi-jack. The thread was about Novak ,the traitor. Ellsberg had nothing to do with it at all. He did a quick and bad job of shodanizing. It was? If so, then why didn’t the OP mention Novak? (Actually, Bricker was quite brilliant here) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/130 "2009-08-19T05:54:46Z")
Novak was everything that was wrong with professional journalism. He crowed about lauding his sources and trashing people who refused to be his sources. He was Goebbels without the uniform. Hey, Goebbels didn’t pull the trigger on anyone personally. Did Novak believe he was doing the right thing? Sure, but so did Goebbels. I could actually have forgiven the Prince of Darkness for outing Plame and ruining her multi-billion dollar anti-proliferation operation because it might have been defensible had Novak admitted a mistake in a rush to print. But his unrepentant line of bull was that it was widely known and it wasn’t a mistake. So he waived the mistake defense. Any journalist who serves as just a propaganda tool for his or her masters is a little Goebbels, either of the right or the left. The public good is done by those journalists who get the sources and find a way to tell the story, either in their paid job, or in a book or blog. Novak was a well paid little Goebbels. I’d call him a hack, but most hacks don’t deliberately help provoke wars and destroy people just for shits and giggles. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/131 "2009-08-19T08:57:55Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > By the time that you are so far gone that you gloat over the painful death of **any** human being, **especially for something as trivial as this** , your soul is so dead that you can no longer remember, much less comprehend what it was like to be a good and caring human being. (emphasis mine) You think outing a covert CIA agent, one who we now know was working on gathering WMD intelligence, putting her life and the lives of her family and the lives of her co-workers and contacts in danger, is _trivial_? And it’s _our_ souls that are dead? You know how I know you’re full of shit? Because if the situation were reversed, and it was Democrats who outed a CIA agent out of spite and malice, you and your soul-dead conservative friends wouldn’t shut the fuck up about what an outrage it was. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/132 "2009-08-19T11:15:14Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Why is anyone wondering if I think Novak is a traitor? I think I was quite clear in my OP what I think on that score. Novak has fuck all to do with someone who I never mentioned and didn’t give a thought to and whose only reason for existing in this thread is to take the heat off of a man who outed a government agent as payback to a political enemy. > > I do not feel the need to play **Bricker’s** moral equivalency game. You all are welcome to it, though. Well, I guess you can march out here with your head held high. But it’s pretty clear to me you reached your result by noting than Novak’s acts assisted a Republican, and THAT made them vile; Ellsberg’s acts hurt a Republican, and that made them forgiveable. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/133 "2009-08-19T11:27:42Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think Bricker has conducted himself admirably in this thread. No, seriously. It’s a fair comparison. I disagree. I think he was able to successfully weave a rationalization for a lame attempt at distraction because he is slightly more skilled at the art than is **Mr. Moto** or **Scylla** or **Shodan** or any of the others who would typically employ this debate/discussion strategy. Here’s my evidence: He apparently agreed that Novak could be considered a traitor. If two people observing a referent agree that it is a member of a particular category or construct, what then is the point of bringing up a different referent altogether, except to _have a different discussion altogether_. If I want to talk about Roberto Clemente, and I say what a _consummate ballplayer_ Roberto Clemente was, and you say “Yeah, he was a _consummate ballplayer_. But do you agree that Ty Cobb was also a _consummate ballplayer_?” Now, if I engage you, you have successfully distracted me from a discussion about Roberto Clemente, even though you agreed with me in the first place about the term I chose to use to describe him. If you don’t want to talk about Roberto Clemente, shut the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/134 "2009-08-19T11:40:45Z")
That’s all very true, Hentor. (And very well put together.) However, I think that the predicate of a statement is as much up for discussion as the subject, if not more. If the OP thinks John is the scum of the earth because he did so and so, then it is perfectly proper to ask whether the OP also thinks Jane is the scum of the earth since Jane did essentially what John did. Now, if the OP had complained about the condition of Novak’s yellowed and rotted teeth, or his cheap Men’s Warehouse suits, then Bricker would be hard put to bring up an equivalent “douchebag of liberty”. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/135 "2009-08-19T12:20:42Z")
I take no position as to whether Novak’s actions in the Plame affair could be considered traitorous, but I think the Daniel Ellsberg comparison misses the mark because I don’t think Ellsberg’s motives were partisan in nature; he was as much a part of the Washington establishment as one could be. In Novak’s case, it’s been a point of debate whether certain American journalists and news media types have maintained their independence and impartiality or have allowed themselves to become mouthpieces for the government. I fail to see how casually outing a CIA agent in a news story meant to respond to criticism by that agent’s husband served the public interest. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/136 "2009-08-19T12:46:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But it’s pretty clear to me you reached your result by noting than Novak’s acts assisted a Republican, and THAT made them vile; Ellsberg’s acts hurt a Republican, and that made them forgiveable. I’m sure **Biggirl** can speak for herself, but as I review this thread I don’t see her forgiving or even addressing the issue of Ellsberg. She objects to your attempts to divert attention from Novak, but she does not offer an opinion on Ellsberg, as far as I can see. So, while we’re busy ascribing motives and all, it’s pretty cler to me that you assume **Biggirl** forgives Ellsberg while she attacks Novak. You apparently believe that someone who attacks a conservative must automatically excuse that behavior in liberals. Now, you’ve been around here longer than me, so maybe you have a long history of watching **Biggirl** do exactly that. Or maybe you’re just jumping right to the conclusion that those who attack conservatives are guilty of hypocrisy, and not bothering to evaluate their actual statements. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/137 "2009-08-19T12:53:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It hurt the reputation of the US abroad by revealing our actions in Laos and Cambodia. What, Laotians and Cambodians too dumb to notice they were being bombed by the US and complain about it? ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/138 "2009-08-19T13:04:55Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > That’s how I think of some of you. I wonder if you are actually alive. If you were the empty dead spirits of hateful fanatics forced to haunt the internet and spew your hate as parodies of your formally living selves, it would explain your one-dimensional bitterness better than to consider you were an active part of humanity. I’m \*totally \*taking this for my eHarmony description. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/139 "2009-08-19T13:06:47Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > By the time that you are so far gone that you gloat over the painful death of **any** human being, especially for something as trivial as this, your soul is so dead that you can no longer remember, much less comprehend what it was like to be a good and caring human being. That from somebody who can dismiss lying us into a war, killing hundreds of thousands along the way, as “petty politics”. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859/140 "2009-08-19T13:18:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But it’s pretty clear to me you reached your result by noting than Novak’s acts assisted a Republican, and THAT made them vile; Ellsberg’s acts hurt a Republican, and that made them forgiveable. Bzzzt. The comparison you raised is a fair one; however, concluding that someone finds one a traitor and the other not because of party affiliation is dishonest. If my moral compass says that publicizing classified information is OK if I believe it will save lives, and repugnant for a lesser reason, I find Novak to be a traitor and Ellsberg “guilty with explanation,” or however you phrased it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-douchebag-of-liberty-has-passed-on/506859.md?page=8)