# The Dresden Files: Ghost Story **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 21, 2011, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836 "2011-07-21T11:04:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/21 "2011-07-27T06:29:59Z")
> [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](#): > > Big, end-of-book spoilers to follow. You don’t want to click on this if you haven’t finished the story. > > [SPOILER]ARGH!!! All that, and he’s STILL the Winter Knight? I didn’t especially enjoy powerless N00B Harry. I rather like clever powerful Harry running around Chicago and the Never-Never, butting into other people’s affairs, making enemies, etc. It was an OK story, and I realize he was supposed to grow and learn here, but two books in a row of Harry not being Harry is a bit much. Now he’ll be on Mab’s strings throughout the next one, spend the whole book trying to do her work while not killing everyone in his way, while also trying to get out of his Knight job. At least he’ll be clever powerful Harry again, even if he’ll be under Mab’s thumb - and he can freakin’ TALK to people again! > > Also, Corpsetaker AGAIN? > > Ah well, the biggest constant in the Dresdan books is change. His old life has burned down, and he’s spent a whole book dead (or dead-ish), so out of the ashes will rise the new Harry. It’s seemed pretty obvious for a long time that the series is steering him towards a seat on the White Council, and he’s got a lot to go through to get there. I wonder if he’ll end up as the Merlin. Probably not anytime soon, since just about everyone else on the council has much more skill, knowledge, and experience, even if Harry has a lot of power. I think just about the entire council would have to die for him to become the Merlin within, say, Murphy’s lifetime. > > Will Harry get Bob back from Butters? Will he be reunited with Mister and Mouse and Maggie? Will Murphy keep the swords, and/or eventually wield one as a Knight of the Cross? Will Thomas ever get to be a real boy? > [/SPOILER] It would have been cheap to have Harry get out of being the Winter Knight so relatively easily. He’s only getting out of that by dealing with Mab directly. If you think about it, the title of the next book “Cold Days” was pretty much hinting at Harry still being the Winter Knight. My issue with this book is that instead of solving his murder, he spent most of the book trying to save Mort. The question isn’t if he’ll get Bob back but when he’ll get Bob back. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/22 "2011-07-27T06:34:25Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > My issue with this book is that instead of solving his murder, he spent most of the book trying to save Mort. But that was what he needed to do to solve his murder. Uriel set the whole damn thing up to kill multiple birds with one stone: solve Harry’s murder, defeat Corpsetaker, restore Molly’s sanity (if partially), realize JUST how bad he hurt the world by killing the Red Court, and probably a few other things. Harry accomplished his mission splendidly, even if he didn’t know he was doing so at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/23 "2011-07-27T07:01:41Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > But that was what he needed to do to solve his murder. Uriel set the whole damn thing up to kill multiple birds with one stone: solve Harry’s murder, defeat Corpsetaker, restore Molly’s sanity (if partially), realize JUST how bad he hurt the world by killing the Red Court, and probably a few other things. Harry accomplished his mission splendidly, even if he didn’t know he was doing so at the time. I understand that but at the time it felt like a huge detour to me. I really like that Maggie ended up with Mouse and the Carpenters. She couldn’t hope to have anyone better to care for her. They’d fight the Legions of Hell for their kids and will do no less for Maggie. Mouse was able to intimidate a powerful Sidhe and is an evil detecting dog with human level intelligence. Not to mention the guardian angels looking over the Carpenters. Also she won’t be lonely with all the Carpenter children. Also Mister staying with Murphy was nice. He’ll treat her well as her new landlord. I can’t wait for “Cold Days” I want to see more about how the Fae Courts operate and just how strong the Knights are. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/24 "2011-07-27T16:47:53Z")
Picked my copy up and read it last night. I have to admit that I missed the call on the shooter. [spoiler]My money was on Fix, who had ample reason for a preemptive strike and shown inclinations that way before. As Summer Knight, I imagine that he could make the shot from sufficient range to pull it off. I figured that Kincaid would have gone for a headshot…and I still wonder why he didn’t. He’s more than capable of it; this is, after all, a guy who lined up a _double_ headshot on a pair of the Fallen while hanging from ropes. Is it possible that he expected someone to try to revive Harry, and wanted to leave the option open? A headshot would have been a bit much even for Mab and Demonreach to overcome. I also did not suspect that Harry had ordered the hit himself.[/spoiler] My assessment of the motivation was correct, but that was fairly obvious. Harry’s revival was also pretty much exactly as I envisioned, right down to the, er, “intra-vine-ous” nutrition. Like **Uosdwis R. Dewoh** , I love the fact that Mort got the Big Damn Hero moment. A whole army shows up to save him, and he ends up saving the day. In fact, I was impressed with Mort throughout. We’ve only been shown glimpses of his growth before, but he has now graduated from swindling lowlife to full-fledged badass. (Even if he does still consider himself a coward.) **Xan** , [spoiler]I’m actually a bit worried about Bob. When last seen, he was tangling with his Evil Twin/Bastard Child/Goateed Skull. His stated intention was to close the Way and flee, but was he able to get away? Evil Bob only represents about, what, a quarter of Bob’s “life”…but that quarter is loaded with purely destructive knowledge and power. If Bob wasn’t able to ditch him, could he have won the fight? If so, what might he have had to do? As he pointed out, once he was out of Harry’s possession, Harry’s orders were no longer binding. He was no longer compelled not to remember his time with Kemmler; he just couldn’t, because he had excised the memories that became Evil Bob. What if he had to reabsorb them, like the ghosts reabsorbing their memories, to win? Suddenly, he has the potential to go Dark Side again. Alternatively, if Bob got away, Evil Bob is still out there. That can’t be a good thing for the good guys.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/25 "2011-07-27T18:55:16Z")
At some point [spoiler]Harry’s friends and circle are going to hear about the new Winter Knight. If Harry’s not right there to explain that he was kinda dead and got better, they’re going to assume the ghost was not Harry after all. Non-hilarity will ensue, especially from Murphy. Then again, Murphy was there when Harry created an actual ghost fake-Harry in book two, right? When he clinically died for a few seconds so that he’d have himself as backup? So whether she takes “Harry is alive” as “He must have clinically died again” or “Omigod he was an impostor after all!!” will probably depend on her mental state. Given how she went into complete denial about his death, and wasn’t able to fully accept it even when Ghost Harry was right there talking to her, she’s probably going to go a little nuts about it.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/26 "2011-07-27T19:00:19Z")
[spoiler]Ohhhhh yeah. Murphy will be PISSED. “I held out for six months insisting you were alive. Then your damn ghost shows up and I have to come to terms with that. Then, after I finally start pulling myself together from _that_ little breakdown, here you come prancing back to life as easy as you please. Goddammit Dresden, I’ve got half a mind to just shoot you right now if it means you’ll just _stay_ that way.” One thing I’m disappointed about: I laid money that there would be a time skip (which happened) and Harry would find that Murphy had gone into the PI business with Molly as her sidekick. That would have been pretty cool. The underground resistance thing is a touch post-apocalyptic, if reasonable given the state of the world.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/27 "2011-07-27T19:01:08Z")
I finished it today. I have to say I didn’t particularly care for it…not that any one part was objectionable so much as the fact that it was a book-long lead-up. It was unsatisfying and felt cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/28 "2011-07-27T19:30:13Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > [spoiler]Ohhhhh yeah. Murphy will be PISSED. > > “I held out for six months insisting you were alive. Then your damn ghost shows up and I have to come to terms with that. Then, after I finally start pulling myself together from _that_ little breakdown, here you come prancing back to life as easy as you please. Goddammit Dresden, I’ve got half a mind to just shoot you right now if it means you’ll just _stay_ that way.” > > One thing I’m disappointed about: I laid money that there would be a time skip (which happened) and Harry would find that Murphy had gone into the PI business with Molly as her sidekick. That would have been pretty cool. The underground resistance thing is a touch post-apocalyptic, if reasonable given the state of the world.[/spoiler] You’re not giving Murphy and the gang enough credit. Someone will have to notice that GhostHarry and the new Winter Knight were not active at the same time. Also, when Harry is able to explain the situation he can easily mention stuff he did as a ghost that Murphy knows about. Also, that’s assuming they find out about the new Winter Knight right away or that Harry will have any contact with them at all in the next book. if Bob is still stuck in the Nevernever they won’t have much in the way of info on the spirit world. Besides Bob isn’t on good terms with the Winter Court. In “Summer Knight” he knew who the Summer Knight was but not the Winter Knight. In “Stormfront” Harry threatens to turn Bob into Mab for something or other. Besides they think Harry has moved on to the afterlife and don’t have much of a reason to know who the Knights are. Sure Lea could give them that info but Lea won’t say anything unless someone asks and it won’t come cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/29 "2011-07-27T19:41:42Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > You’re not giving Murphy and the gang enough credit. Someone will have to notice that GhostHarry and the new Winter Knight were not active at the same time. [spoiler]I didn’t actually say Murphy would think the ghost hadn’t been Harry. I just said she’d be pissed because her emotions would be getting jerked around all to hell. Though I guess I did agree with **Malleus** , but I don’t think Murphy will disbelieve. Although she has ramped up the hardcase bitch factor, so who knows.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/30 "2011-07-27T20:01:25Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > [spoiler]I didn’t actually say Murphy would think the ghost hadn’t been Harry. I just said she’d be pissed because her emotions would be getting jerked around all to hell. > > Though I guess I did agree with **Malleus** , but I don’t think Murphy will disbelieve. Although she has ramped up the hardcase bitch factor, so who knows.[/spoiler] It’s possible. But she didn’t believe it was Harry because she didn’t want to admit Harry was dead. To be fair, she was right Harry was technically still alive. His soul was separated from his body but he was on what amounted to life support on Demonreach. Also, they have run into things that can shapeshift. Once Molly used the Sight on him they believed it was him. If Murphy does get pissed I don’t think she’ll stay pissed for long. Like I said Harry can prove it was him during that period and Murphy will just be happy that Harry is alive. He’ll get out of being the Winter Knight somehow. He’s got out of Fae bargains before. My theory is that he’ll mainly be dealing with the Fomor situation as Winter Knight. They are the big threat to the Sidhe right now. Both the Summer and Winter Courts. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/31 "2011-07-27T20:38:46Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > Also, when Harry is able to explain the situation he can easily mention stuff he did as a ghost that Murphy knows about. …I agree with you on that. However, I don’t think Murph and Co. will find out from Harry himself- him being stuck in Winter with Mab. It could be years, if ever, before he returns to Chicago. So at the very least there’ll probably be a time gap between Murphy hearing that Harry wasn’t dead after all, and Harry giving her an explanation. I suppose Harry could preempt things by sending a message to Murphy, but that would be tricky. First he’d need a fae he could trust to be his messenger. The Za Guard is Summer Fae, right? I don’t think he has many friends in Winter. And he’ll probably be too overwhelmed to think, at least at first. That could be a plot- Mab sends Harry on human-related business, Harry has a belated realization that news will get out and Murphy will be pissed, Harry very quickly tries to find some sort of messenger to explain things. Hilarity does in fact insue. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/32 "2011-07-27T20:39:36Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > If Murphy does get pissed I don’t think she’ll stay pissed for long. Like I said Harry can prove it was him during that period and Murphy will just be happy that Harry is alive. He’ll get out of being the Winter Knight somehow. He’s got out of Fae bargains before. No, you’re not getting it. She’s not going to be pissed because she’ll think the ghost wasn’t really Harry. She’ll be pissed because she’s been on a nonstop emotional rollercoaster since his death, from anticipation of their date to internalizing grief and externalizing the hardass cop attitude (plus the grief associated with losing her badge), to allowing herself to feel grief on realizing that Harry really is dead and coming to terms with that, to the eventual shock when Harry shows up again. She’ll get over it eventually, sure, but she’s going to be all kinds of frustrated before then. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/33 "2011-07-27T21:35:35Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > …I agree with you on that. However, I don’t think Murph and Co. will find out from Harry himself- him being stuck in Winter with Mab. It could be years, if ever, before he returns to Chicago. So at the very least there’ll probably be a time gap between Murphy hearing that Harry wasn’t dead after all, and Harry giving her an explanation. > I suppose Harry could preempt things by sending a message to Murphy, but that would be tricky. First he’d need a fae he could trust to be his messenger. The Za Guard is Summer Fae, right? I don’t think he has many friends in Winter. And he’ll probably be too overwhelmed to think, at least at first. That could be a plot- Mab sends Harry on human-related business, Harry has a belated realization that news will get out and Murphy will be pissed, Harry very quickly tries to find some sort of messenger to explain things. Hilarity does in fact insue. Za Guard is Winter. Toot and teh Guard in “Changes” come to Harry in Winter colors after he makes the deal with Mab. I think they are going to go to whatever side Harry is on. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/34 "2011-07-27T21:53:40Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > No, you’re not getting it. She’s not going to be pissed because she’ll think the ghost wasn’t really Harry. She’ll be pissed because she’s been on a nonstop emotional rollercoaster since his death, from anticipation of their date to internalizing grief and externalizing the hardass cop attitude (plus the grief associated with losing her badge), to allowing herself to feel grief on realizing that Harry really is dead and coming to terms with that, to the eventual shock when Harry shows up again. She’ll get over it eventually, sure, but she’s going to be all kinds of frustrated before then. [spoiler]I think you have a point. Murphy’s default reaction to confusion is to get pissed. (Actually, that’s kind of her default reaction to everything, but we won’t get into that.) Dating Harry (finally), Harry’s missing, Harry was probably shot by Kincaid, Harry’s-not-dead denial, Harry’s a ghost, Harry must be dead, Harry’s not dead after all, Harry’s working for the bad guys…yeah, that ride leads straight to Confusion Central, which happens to be where Murphy keeps her nuclear arsenal. If she doesn’t do him some kind of physical harm in their next in-the-flesh encounter, I’m going to suspect that _she’s_ an impostor.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/35 "2011-07-27T22:19:16Z")
I just want to say that I hate all of you who’s gotten to finish it already. I’ve only managed about 2 1/2 hours of reading time since I got the book (~150 pages). It’s good so far and I like the twists it’s put into his world but at this point I’m not sure where it’s going. ---
**Author:** ![bobkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobkitty)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/36 "2011-07-27T23:33:46Z")
Must. Not. Click. Spoilers. ( sitting on hands, waiting for copy to arrive ) ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/37 "2011-07-28T16:10:39Z")
> [@bobkitty](#): > > Must. Not. Click. Spoilers. > > ( sitting on hands, waiting for copy to arrive ) Then you definitely shouldn’t click on this. Seeing as the White Knight has to be a man, I thought it was genius for Harry to undergo a sex change operation at the end of the book. I can’t wait to read Murphy’s reaction when she meets Harriet Dresden for the first time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/38 "2011-07-28T17:18:09Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > Then you definitely shouldn’t click on this. > > Seeing as the White Knight has to be a man, I thought it was genius for Harry to undergo a sex change operation at the end of the book. I can’t wait to read Murphy’s reaction when she meets Harriet Dresden for the first time. That’s pure evil. What would you do when the fanfic writers get their hands on that idea… if they already haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/39 "2011-07-28T22:29:51Z")
Finished it. IMO Butcher continues to grow as a writer, but I found this book rather bleak. (Perhaps that is more the mindset of the reader than the book, I’m not sure.) But there were some interesting twists and I was fine with how Butcher resolved things. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836/40 "2011-07-28T23:11:11Z")
Question for those who have finished the book (and the post-_Changes_ short stories, I suppose): Do the turtlenecks count as human? In _Aftermath_, one indicated that he was no longer entirely human; is that good enough for First Law purposes? One of them got torched in Harry’s wall of fire, IIRC, and Harry didn’t seem to give it much thought. If it still counts as human, though, that’s a violation of the Law–could it come back to bite him (or Molly, since he worked the magic through her)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dresden-files-ghost-story/589836.md?page=3)