# The Duggers are at it again! \[Family preparing for 18th child\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706 "2008-05-09T15:20:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/41 "2008-05-09T18:19:21Z")
[QUOTE=grosenthol] Please tell me this is a woosh. I know the names of all 80+ employees in my department, and we have a 30% turnover every 2-3 years. Do you really think 18 names is too many to remember? Especially if you spend most of your waking life with some or all of them? [/QUOTE] Oh, yes, I was also going to say that of course they know their siblings’ names. My daughter is 3, and she pretty much knows the name of every kid in her preschool, including those in her classroom, the ones in the other three classrooms, and all the teachers. So, yes, I think these kids can manage to learn their siblings’ names. ---
**Author:** ![lilflower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@lilflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilflower)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/42 "2008-05-09T18:19:21Z")
My problem with such a large family (in this day of birth control) is that I feel it’s incredibly selfish. If you are willing and have the resources to take care of 18 children, do they all have to be your biological children? I’m sure there are lots of needy children in this country who would love to have a “buddy” help them get dressed and off to school every morning. ---
**Author:** ![Darkmoor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@Darkmoor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkmoor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/43 "2008-05-09T18:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] … Or is there is a passage that says thou must screw thy wife every chance you get? … [/QUOTE] Actually, there kind’a is: [QUOTE=Genesis 9:7] As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/44 "2008-05-09T18:22:47Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] So why would having another sibling you have no relationship with hypothectically make a kid happier? Clearly the children can’t benefit from all the other kids, so why subject kids you love to additional burdens that don’t benefit them? [/QUOTE] I’m not saying it would make the kids happier, necessarily…I just don’t think it makes them unhappier. My husband’s brother might have been happier if my husband hadn’t been born…I think he had it pretty darn good there for a while, and I’m sure it was an adjustment. But does that mean my husband should never have been born? Should that decision have been based on what would make the older kid happier? > [@](#): > > It’s selfishness on Jim Bob’s part. Here’s an idea- if the Bible’s against contraception, how about quit having sex? Or is there is a passage that says thou must screw thy wife every chance you get? It’s not like he could possibly be getting any satistaction out if now anyway, its gotta be like the proverbial hotdog down the hallway at this point. I think they want to have a large family. Whatever their reason is, doesn’t matter to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/45 "2008-05-09T18:23:57Z")
[QUOTE=lilflower] My problem with such a large family (in this day of birth control) is that I feel it’s incredibly selfish. If you are willing and have the resources to take care of 18 children, do they all have to be your biological children? I’m sure there are lots of needy children in this country who would love to have a “buddy” help them get dressed and off to school every morning. [/QUOTE] Why do any of us have to have our own biological children? We could all adopt. And I’m all for that…I’m adopted myself. But I’m not going to tell someone they don’t have the right to have kids if they want to. ---
**Author:** ![myskepticsight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@myskepticsight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/myskepticsight)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/46 "2008-05-09T18:25:46Z")
Successive pregnancies: [http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/4079.php](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/4079.php) > **[A BRIEF: Correlation of Estrogen Levels between Successive Pregnancies](https://academic.oup.com/aje/article-abstract/142/6/625/53846)** > > Abstract. To date, no study has attempted to correlate hormone levels between successive pregnancies in the same woman. Serum levels of total estradiol and tota if you can’t read that one, here is an excerpt from the abstract: These findings provide evidence that levels of pregnancy estradiol are significantly and strongly correlated in successive pregnancies of the same woman. This phenomenon can provide an explanation for the higher concordance of breast cancer incidence between two sisters than between a mother and daughter in the familial pattern of breast cancer. Pregnancy over 35: [http://www.pregnancy-info.net/pregnancy\_35\_40.html](http://www.pregnancy-info.net/pregnancy_35_40.html) And I quickly Googled that, someone else can find more and better cites if they try. ---
**Author:** ![lilflower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@lilflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilflower)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/47 "2008-05-09T18:27:51Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Why do any of us have to have our own biological children? We could all adopt. And I’m all for that…I’m adopted myself. But I’m not going to tell someone they don’t have the right to have kids if they want to. [/QUOTE] I didn’t mean to imply they couldn’t have any of their own children or that I want to mandate how many children anyone could have. I’m just thinking that at some point they might have thought to themselves, “yeah, a lot more kids would be nice since we already have X number of kids of our own - maybe we can adopt.” ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/48 "2008-05-09T18:29:19Z")
There’s a huge difference in one or two siblings and 20. As said upthread what if one (seriously) want to beat off in private? What if one is sore from chores and wants to soak in a hot tub for an hour? What if one has a headache and wants to sit in a dark room and rest for a while? With a sibling or two, its feasible, with 20, impossible. They should have the sense to know that even if you believe in the Bible or the teachings of some goofball sect, that much of the stuff is archaic and not sensible in today’s society. When are they going to start selling their daughters into sex slavery as per the Bible? Be fruitful and multiply means have kids, not have as many kids as humanly possible. Populating the earth may have been a necessity back then, last I checked thats no longer a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/49 "2008-05-09T18:29:44Z")
[QUOTE=lilflower] I didn’t mean to imply they couldn’t have any of their own children or that I want to mandate how many children anyone could have. I’m just thinking that at some point they might have thought to themselves, “yeah, a lot more kids would be nice since we already have X number of kids of our own - maybe we can adopt.” [/QUOTE] Oh, I know you didn’t. Sorry about that. It’s just that, how do you decide when enough is enough? Some people still have 3, 4 or 5 kids…should they have cut it off after 1 or 2, and adopted the rest? I don’t know, it’s a tough question. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/50 "2008-05-09T18:31:59Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] There’s a huge difference in one or two siblings and 20. As said upthread what if one (seriously) want to beat off in private? What if one is sore from chores and wants to soak in a hot tub for an hour? What if one has a headache and wants to sit in a dark room and rest for a while? With a sibling or two, its feasible, with 20, impossible. They should have the sense to know that even if you believe in the Bible or the teachings of some goofball sect, that much of the stuff is archaic and not sensible in today’s society. When are they going to start selling their daughters into sex slavery as per the Bible? [/QUOTE] I knew several families when I was growing up who had 10 kids in 3 bedroom houses. I really don’t think that any of them thought it was that big of a deal. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/51 "2008-05-09T18:33:22Z")
If you have an actual cite, let’s see it. > [@](#): > > Math is not an opinion. So show us the evidence if you’ve got it. Because there is a school of thought that women were never intended by nature to go through life having period after period, year after year. Not the way nature designed the machine. A woman who has a large family of say 10 - 12 children, and nurses them, has considerably fewer periods over the course of her life. There are people who believe that those women enjoyed less endomitriosis, fibroid cysts, and cervical cancer because of it. That’s why you are beginning to see birth control now being introduced to the market that ceases periods altogether for months at a time, mimicking, in some ways, the number of periods a fertile woman with not birth control might experience. Witty comebacks, also not a cite, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/52 "2008-05-09T18:34:14Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I knew several families when I was growing up who had 10 kids in 3 bedroom houses. I really don’t think that any of them thought it was that big of a deal. [/QUOTE] How long ago was this? There’s a reason for the huge dropoff in number of kids per family since condoms and the pill and sex ed- its not that people like kids less, its that people now have options for limiting pregnancy. You think Joe Sixpack living in a two room flat in Brooklyn in 1940 would’ve had six kids if birth control and condoms were common? ---
**Author:** ![lilflower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@lilflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilflower)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/53 "2008-05-09T18:36:13Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Oh, I know you didn’t. Sorry about that. It’s just that, how do you decide when enough is enough? Some people still have 3, 4 or 5 kids…should they have cut it off after 1 or 2, and adopted the rest? I don’t know, it’s a tough question. [/QUOTE] It is a tough question, and a very personal one. I guess for this family, they haven’t reached their limit (obviously). ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/54 "2008-05-09T18:37:44Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] So show us the evidence if you’ve got it. [/QUOTE] Let’s take this one step at a time. Do you agree there is a nonzero risk of death associated with each birth? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/55 "2008-05-09T18:41:55Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] How long ago was this? There’s a reason for the huge dropoff in number of kids per family since condoms and the pill and sex ed- its not that people like kids less, its that people now have options for limiting pregnancy. [/QUOTE] I’m 41, so it was the 70s, not the dark ages before condoms or the pill. They had options, but I’m from a Catholic neighborhood, and people had large families. It wasn’t that big of a deal. > [@](#): > > You think Joe Sixpack living in a two room flat in Brooklyn in 1940 would’ve had six kids if birth control and condoms were common? Probably some would and some wouldn’t. Seriously, if your argument is that no one just wants to have large families, you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/56 "2008-05-09T18:43:40Z")
I don’t know religion, what was the Catholic churches stance on birth control back then? My guess is it was considered a sin. Average number of children per family in the US has been dropping for decades, but is still highest in poor families, which is to be expected. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/57 "2008-05-09T18:48:56Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] I don’t know religion, what was the Catholic churches stance on birth control back then? My guess is it was considered a sin. [/QUOTE] Still is. But a lot of this is cultural…people come from large families, they live in neighborhoods with large families, and they likewise have large families. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/58 "2008-05-09T18:52:47Z")
I’m guessing the number of families with both parents around age 40 or lower, that have more than six kids, that aren’t devoutly religious or extremely poor, is infinitely small. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/59 "2008-05-09T18:57:57Z")
Did you even read your own cite? > [@](#): > > if you can’t read that one, here is an excerpt from the abstract: > These findings provide evidence that levels of pregnancy estradiol are significantly and strongly correlated in successive pregnancies of the same woman. This phenomenon can provide an explanation for the higher concordance of breast cancer incidence between two sisters than between a mother and daughter in the familial pattern of breast cancer. 34 women, studied between 1959 and 1965. Seriously? And the other two cites, well, they don’t even identify an author. Any Joe Schmo could have written them. I thought asking for a cite, demanded actual evidence to satisfy, not a foolish discussion of the odds or direction to a couple of unattributed web sites, and an almost 50 yr old study. Hmm, guess I was mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706/60 "2008-05-09T18:59:52Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] Did you even read your own cite? 34 women, studied between 1959 and 1965. Seriously? And the other two cites, well, they don’t even identify an author. Any Joe Schmo could have written them. I thought asking for a cite, demanded actual evidence to satisfy, not a foolish discussion of the odds or direction to a couple of unattributed web sites, and an almost 50 yr old study. Hmm, guess I was mistaken. [/QUOTE] If you agree that every birth has a risk, then 20 births is much more likely to result in a problem, either death or something that leads to death down the road, than 2 births, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-duggers-are-at-it-again-family-preparing-for-18th-child/448706.md?page=4)