# The Durham indictments prosecuting fake Trump 'collusion' **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 23, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215 "2021-09-23T20:11:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/362 "2022-07-04T17:19:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And it’s shit like this that makes this board SO much fun for some of us - the ones who are still left, anyway. You know, things might go better if some of us actually do some fact checking before posting, instead of repeating utter garbage from right-wing sources without doing any substantive research. Things might also go better, if some of us were willing to say " Well, events have certainly proven me wrong. I’ll try to do a better job of analysis in the future." Instead of whining about how everyone picks on them. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/363 "2022-07-04T18:12:09Z")
…and when the utter garbage is shown to be utter garbage it would be a better look if the posters who spout said garbage actually came back and owned up to it. More likely said posters tend to slink away and avoid the thread like nothing ever happened. Not a good look IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/364 "2022-07-06T04:10:07Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yeah, he was acquitted. We’ll see what happens from here. At what point (if ever) do you declare the battle lost? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/365 "2022-07-06T05:32:44Z")
Heat death of the universe? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/366 "2022-07-06T05:37:35Z")
Only if Cosmic Smokey Bear pours water on it afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2022, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/367 "2022-07-06T14:00:34Z")
_ **Moderating** _ Let’s not get too personal on this forum. If you want to attack the poster, y’all know where the Pit is. No warnings, barely even a Note. A Mod Reminder, if you will, to keep the heat low. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/368 "2022-07-10T21:47:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Has the Sussman verdict caused you to reevaluate your opinion on the Durham investigations? To me, it validates my earlier opinion that it was most likely baseless bullshit and only motivated by Trump and Barr’s political hopes. Still hoping you’ll answer this question, @Sam_Stone. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2022, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/369 "2022-07-10T21:50:22Z")
The investigation is not over. I never claimed it was a slam dunk, and merely posted what the investigation was doing. It may turn out to be a total dud, but we can’t say until it is closed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2022, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/370 "2022-07-10T21:57:32Z")
Okay, but that’s not really what I asked. I don’t think you ever thought it was a “slam dunk”, but from reading your posts in this thread you did seem to think it was very likely a legitimate investigation into real and significant wrongdoing. Do you still feel that way? Are you less confident that’s the case? Do you think the Sussman verdict was properly decided? If so, doesn’t it reveal a big weakness in Durham’s whole investigation, since this was the most significant finding so far? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2022, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/371 "2022-07-10T22:00:54Z")
I don’t think the facts are disputed, which is that Sussmann presented material that originated from the Hillary campaign without disclosing it. They just didn’t have the evidence to show that he was witholding ‘material’ information under the legal definition of what is or isn’t ‘material’. But if the Hillary campaign was responsible for much of the ‘Russian collusion’ material that caused years of investigations, that’s still really bad. But I don’t know if Durham will be able to prove that at all, or prove that it was fake. We’ll know when it wraps up. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/372 "2022-07-10T22:11:39Z")
This presumes that the “Russia collusion” story was made up. If it wasn’t made up, then a campaign using it really isn’t wrongdoing in any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2022, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/373 "2022-07-10T22:20:50Z")
Well, we kmow the Steele Dossier was largely bullshit, and that appears to have been commissioned by Fusion GPS working for the Hillary campaign. Also, the ‘Alfa Bank’ story, which was the subject of the Durham indictment, was manufactured by people working for Hillary. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-20/clinton-approved-trump-russia-leak-her-campaign-manager-says](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-20/clinton-approved-trump-russia-leak-her-campaign-manager-says) > [@](#): > > Hillary Clinton personally signed off on a plan in 2016 to quietly pitch to the media the now-discredited theory that computer servers at Donald Trump’s company had a secret communications link with a Russian bank, her former campaign manager told a jury. > > Robby Mook, a witness in the trial of a former Clinton campaign lawyer charged with lying to the FBI, on Friday testified that he and others at the campaign “weren’t totally confident” in the veracity of the server data, but they sent it to reporters anyway a few months before the election. > … > The purported server link between the [Trump Organization](https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/3603126Z:US) and Russia-based Alfa Bank was ultimately debunked by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Former campaign lawyer Michael Sussmann is now on trial for allegedly lying to the FBI when he said he wasn’t representing any client when he brought that claim to the agency’s attention in September 2016. The fact that Sussmann was found to be not guilty of lying in a way that affected the materiality of the information in no way absolves Hillary Clinton of orchestrating this in the first place. That remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2022, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/374 "2022-07-10T22:27:44Z")
From my reading the Steele dossier has been largely unverified, but I haven’t read that it’s been determined to be “largely bullshit”. Further, from what I’ve read, the dossier played no significant role in the intelligence community’s assessment of Russian activity during the 2016 campaign (which have been all-but-confirmed were meant to assist Trump), and was not the reason for the investigation into whether Trump colluded with Russia. And even if it eventually is proven to be “largely bullshit”, that doesn’t mean it was wrong (much less illegal) for Hillary Clinton (or her campaign) to try and use the dossier for political advantage. It’s very unlikely she could have known it was “largely bullshit” at the time. Trump’s own behavior, including asking for Russian assistance publicly, made this a legitimate line of political attack. EDIT: From your link: "Still, other connections between Trump and Russia turned out to be true, as outlined in Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report. For example, Trump campaign officials including Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort met with a group of Russians at Trump Tower on June 9, 2016, after Don Jr. had been told by an intermediary that they had dirt on Clinton that was “part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.” Trump also publicly encouraged Russia to “find” Clinton’s missing emails." ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2022, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/375 "2022-07-10T22:44:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > in no way absolves Hillary Clinton of orchestrating this in the first place To my understanding, opposition research is a standard component of large campaigns. Implying that it’s somehow nefarious is unreasonable. From everything that Durham has discovered - and that Horowitz discovered before him - all indications still seem to say Team Clintons’ reports of criminal activity to the FBI came from a genuine belief, as a product of the opposition research, that there had been actual criminal activity on the part of Trump and his associates. Once they had a belief in Trump’s criminality, it would be fairly reasonable to coordinate how that gets relayed to the FBI and who all knows it. If Hillary was managing the information flow, I don’t see that as particularly unreasonable. She was the boss of the opposition researchers and the campaign. But that’s a long distance from coming up with a con-game, paying people to perform roles in generating and propagating the con, choosing the FBI as your con’s target, and all in the aim of getting revenge on a guy that you hadn’t lost the election to, yet, and probably didn’t think you were actually going to lose to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2022, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/376 "2022-07-10T22:49:52Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The investigation is not over. At what point, specifically, would you consider it to be “over”? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2022, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/377 "2022-07-11T00:37:54Z")
You realize the statute of limitations has long passed for anything Hillary allegedly did in the run up to the 2016 election, right? Unless you think they’re going to get her for murder? And the big question remains — if the Steele dossier was some dirty trick Hillary orchestrated in the run-up to the 2016 election designed to help her win, why wasn’t it leaked BEFORE the election? Steele always said the report was unverified intelligence that he estimated to be 70% correct, and that’s pretty much turned out to be true, even if the true stuff was the less sensational stuff. Even the most lascivious portion incorporated lots of true elements, he did spend the night at the Moscow hotel on the night in question and the Russians did attempt to arrange for five hookers to be sent to Trump’s room, it’s just that he was cockblocked by his body man Keith Schiller. And I still contend that the presence of Paul Manafort, with his sordid history of rigging Ukrainian elections for Russian interests, in a high level position on a US Presidential campaign was, in and of itself, justification to open an FBI investigation and the FBI would’ve been negligent if they didn’t investigate it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2022, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/378 "2022-07-11T01:10:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > At what point, specifically, would you consider it to be “over”? You know, when it ends. Just like the Mueller investigation. At some point the investigation will be closed, and a final report issued. Apparently, there is another trial coming in the fall: > [@](#): > > The only remaining case on Durham’s public court docket is against one of the sources for the infamous [Trump-Russia dossier](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/18/politics/steele-dossier-reckoning/index.html)– a compilation of memos written in 2016 by ex-British spy Christopher Steele, who levied explosive and unverified allegations against Trump and his campaign. > > The defendant, [Russian expat Igor Danchenko](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics/danchenko-durham-steele-plea/index.html), was charged with five counts of lying to the FBI during his interviews in 2017 where investigators tried to corroborate Steele’s claims. Much of the material in the dossier has been debunked or discredited by subsequent federal probes. > > Danchenko has pleaded not guilty, and his trial is slated for October in Alexandria, Virginia. > > Special counsel prosecutors will likely use the case to put the entire dossier on trial, much like they used the Sussmann case to shine a light on the Clinton campaign’s murky dealings with opposition research groups and its efforts to peddle unverified anti-Trump stories to the press. Other than that, we don’t know because Durham hasn’t made it public. Maybe that will be the end, maybe not. [https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/31/politics/durham-whats-next/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/31/politics/durham-whats-next/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2022, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/379 "2022-07-11T01:11:49Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I don’t think the facts are disputed, which is that Sussmann presented material that originated from the Hillary campaign without disclosing it. This is completely incorrect. The research that Sussmann brought to the FBI did not originate with the Clinton campaign. How is it possible that you are still so misinformed about this after it has been pointed out to you numerous times? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2022, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/380 "2022-07-11T01:26:53Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > You realize the statute of limitations has long passed for anything Hillary allegedly did in the run up to the 2016 election, right? Unless you think they’re going to get her for murder? My understanding is that one of the reasons Hillary and others were named in the ‘speaking indictments’ was to stop the time clock on the Stature of Limitations. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > And the big question remains — if the Steele dossier was some dirty trick Hillary orchestrated in the run-up to the 2016 election designed to help her win, why wasn’t it leaked BEFORE the election? It WAS. They tried very hard to get the media to report on it. It was just so shoddy that major newspapers wouldn’t run it. Perhaps they didn’t want to risk their reputations over this when they thought Trump,would lose anyway. > [@](#): > > “Fusion and Steele tried to alert U.S. law enforcement and the news media to the material they’d uncovered …” and their office became “something of a public reading room” for journalists seeking information. In September they arranged a private meeting between Steele and reporters from _The Washington Post_ , _The New York Times_ , _The New Yorker_ , ABC News, and other outlets. The results were disappointing, as none published any stories before the election. But some took the bait: > [@](#): > > Before the election, only two news sources mentioned allegations that came from dossier reports. Steele had been in contact with both authors. These were a September 23, 2016, [Yahoo! News](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_News) article by [Michael Isikoff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Isikoff) which focused on Carter Page,[[95]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steele_dossier#cite_note-Isikoff_9/23/2016-95) and an article by [David Corn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Corn) on October 31, 2016, a week before the election, in _[Mother Jones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Jones_(magazine))_ magazine.[[70]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steele_dossier#cite_note-Corn_10/31/2016-70) > > At the time, the FBI had assumed that the source for the Yahoo! article was someone, other than Steele, “who had received a copy of the dossier”. The 2019 DOJ report by Michael Horowitz criticized the FBI for failing to ask Steele if he had a role in that Yahoo! article. Then the election happened and Trump won. Then Buzzfeed ran a full story on it in January, giving other newspapers to report on it by reporting on the controversial Buzzfeed decision to report it. > **[Steele dossier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steele_dossier)** > > The Steele dossier, also known as the Trump–Russia dossier, is a controversial political opposition research report compiled by Christopher Steele that was published without permission as an unfinished 35-page compilation of "unverified, and potentially unverifiable"\[a\] raw intelligence reports—"not established facts, but a starting point for further investigation". It was written from June to December 2016 and contains allegations of misconduct, conspiracy, and cooperation between D It wa... ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2022, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/381 "2022-07-11T01:28:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > As for it being one of the ‘weakest’ cases he’s seen, apparently a Grand Jury did not agree. So fhere will be a trial, and we’ll find out how weak the case is then. Did we find out how weak the case was? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215.md?page=20)