# The Durham indictments prosecuting fake Trump 'collusion' **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 23, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215 "2021-09-23T20:11:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/41 "2021-09-27T16:13:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But what is intellectually improper is to accuse the candidate of a myriad of malfeasance and when it is shown that the evidence used to attempt to prove that malfeasance was all lies to begin with, to just fall back and say that it was “much worse” that the candidate was simply preferred. You got one thing right. In no relevant universe is this close to being accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/42 "2021-09-27T16:32:18Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > But if none of the above works, they know he’s a moron, is easily manipulated and would hurt the US. It’s a win win. For Putins entertainment if nothing else. And it’s also a win even if Trump had lost in 2016, because we all saw that he was already setting up the narrative of a “stolen election”. We would have seen the same crap then that we’re seeing now, almost certainly. The ongoing and increasing divisiveness in the US is beneficial to Russia, and really any other country that doesn’t particularly like the US. Putin made a really good bet on Trump in 2016, that would pay off no matter what happened in the election. That he hit the jackpot instead of just winning a door prize is a bonus, but even the door prize would have been valuable. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/43 "2021-09-27T22:22:58Z")
Also its hard to remember since so much stronger evidence came out later, but Trump’s comments about Putin were raising questions even early in the campaign, long before Russia was accused hacking the Democrats or otherwise interfering election interference. > **[80 times Trump talked about Putin](https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/03/politics/trump-putin-russia-timeline/)** > > A CNN KFile review of Trump’s statements reveals that Trump has contradicted himself over the years about the nature of his relationship with Putin and about his business dealings in Russia. The Steele dossier and Putin’s actions regarding the election weren’t the genesis of the belief that Trump was cozy with Russia, they were the confirmation. It is awfully coincidental that the one dictator that Trump seems to inexplicably praising despite suffering the political consequences, even to the point of pushing for his [party’s platform](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/trump-campaign-guts-gops-anti-russia-stance-on-ukraine/2016/07/18/98adb3b0-4cf3-11e6-a7d8-13d06b37f256_story.html) wouldn’t support sending military assistance to the country he just invaded, just happens to be the one that interferes to get him elected. Pure coincidence I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/44 "2021-09-30T01:34:52Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > So much of this indictment is superfluous and irrelevant to the actual charges. It reads more like a "here’s a list of bad stuff this guy has done, but we’re not going to/can’t criminally charge him " type magazine hit piece than a criminal indictment. I suppose it could be laying the groundwork for further indictments like you hope, but it is an extremely stupid way to indict someone. Robert Mueller did this all the time. It’s a ‘Speaking Indictment’. [https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/402902-muellers-speaking-indictments-offer-clues-to-strategy?rl=1](https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/402902-muellers-speaking-indictments-offer-clues-to-strategy?rl=1) Maybe it’s a special prosecutor thing. > **[Speaking indictment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_indictment)** > > In the United States, a speaking indictment is an indictment that goes beyond the legally required statement of the elements of the charged offense(s) by including a narrative of the alleged underlying conduct in more detail. Speaking indictments have been used in several special counsel probes, including the Federal prosecution of Donald Trump, as part of the Mueller Inquiry into Russian interference with the American political process., and in the December 2023 indictment of Hunter This articl... ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/45 "2021-09-30T01:44:36Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Robert Mueller did this all the time. It’s a ‘Speaking Indictment’. While it is nice to see you supporting Mueller (how did you like those findings, by the by? You continuously ignore every post that reminds you that none of this lessens the reality of Russian interference to help Trump, so I’m unsure), that does not make “speaking indictments” any less stupid. No matter who does them, they’re more flash than good prosecution technique. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/46 "2021-09-30T14:16:19Z")
In Mueller’s case, because of the unique circumstances, it was also known as an “impeachment referral”. ETA: I read the indictment. It’s damning if you think knowing Hillary Clinton or working for Hillary Clinton should be illegal. Otherwise, it’s just a whole bunch of “Aha, he knew Hillary” “Aha, he talked to Hillary”, “Look, he sent Hillary a bill”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/47 "2021-09-30T14:38:07Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > It’s damning if you think knowing Hillary Clinton or working for Hillary Clinton should be illegal. Or indeed “being Hillary Clinton”. Lock her up! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/48 "2021-09-30T14:48:02Z")
Or “Ummmmm… something something emails” ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/49 "2021-09-30T14:48:13Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > In Mueller’s case, because of the unique circumstances, it was also known as an “impeachment referral”. > > ETA: I read the indictment. It’s damning if you think knowing Hillary Clinton or working for Hillary Clinton should be illegal. Otherwise, it’s just a whole bunch of “Aha, he knew Hillary” “Aha, he talked to Hillary”, “Look, he sent Hillary a bill”. Again, that’s not a fair reading of the press release indictment. The press release indictment alleges that Sussmann also did opposition research on Trump, some of which may have been misleading. Pearl clutching stuff. I remain unsure if there was any other illegality (other than the alleged lying to investigators), but we do know there aren’t any other charges currently. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/50 "2021-09-30T15:12:05Z")
I’m pretty sure there won’t be other charges just like I’m pretty sure this whole indictment was a way to avoid telling Durham’s breathlessly deluded fan base that they spent years and found crickets. The reason I think there won’t be is that it’s my understanding that this indictment was filed at the last possible moment, due to statute of limitation issues. Now I’m not a lawyer or a physicist, but I’m pretty sure that the stuff he allegedly lied about happened BEFORE he told the alleged lies, and is therefore out of reach. Of course, if it there was anything to it, they had five years to find it and bring charges. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/51 "2021-09-30T19:37:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So what was the evidence of his stoogeness again? [![](https://forums.talkingpointsmemo.com/uploads/default/optimized/4X/e/b/4/eb458019719a2e329bd7d611e5d303ba95982c4b_2_666x500.jpeg) ](https://forums.talkingpointsmemo.com/uploads/default/optimized/4X/e/b/4/eb458019719a2e329bd7d611e5d303ba95982c4b_2_666x500.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/52 "2021-09-30T21:11:26Z")
[https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/30/politics/durham-subpoenas-probe-russia-fbi-sussman/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/30/politics/durham-subpoenas-probe-russia-fbi-sussman/index.html) > [@](#): > > In seeking additional documents from Sussmann’s former law firm, Perkins Coie, investigators from the special counsel’s office appear to be sharpening their focus on the Democratic political machinery during the 2016 campaign and efforts to tie Trump to Russia. > > Perkins Coie’s clients in 2016 included the Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee. The law firm also hired on the campaign’s behalf a research company that commissioned the dossier from ex-British spy Christopher Steele that alleged that Trump was compromised by Russia. > > Durham has already accessed reams of the law firm’s records, such as billing records, meeting calendars and a log of documents that the firm protects under attorney-client privilege. > … > While working for Perkins Coie, Sussmann also represented Rodney Joffe, a cybersecurity expert referred to in Durham’s [indictment](https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics/read-sussmann-indictment/index.html) as “Tech Executive-1.” In 2016, Joffe, who has not been previously identified, worked with researchers to collect internet data about the Trump Organization that Sussmann took to the FBI. > > Durham’s continued use of the federal grand jury in Washington, DC, signals that he could be interested in adding to Sussmann’s charges or bringing cases against additional defendants. So the ‘speakkng indictment’ was in fact part of a larger conspiracy investigation. To be fair, the article quotes people who are skeptical of the indictment and think the information in it was cherry-picked. We will see. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/53 "2021-09-30T21:24:40Z")
"Still, more than two years after being commissioned by then Attorney General William Barr to investigate whether federal authorities improperly targeted the Trump campaign, Durham has little to show for his efforts. His special counsel probe, which has lasted longer than Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation, has so far brought only two lying charges against [little-known figures](https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/29/politics/kevin-clinesmith-sentencing-durham/index.html), including the case against Sussmann, who has pleaded not guilty. The results have underwhelmed Trump supporters who had hoped former top FBI and intelligence officials would be prosecuted for “spying” on Trump and his campaign." Apparently hasn’t “underwhelmed” ALL Trump supporters, knowhatimsayin? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/54 "2021-09-30T21:35:46Z")
Durham’s case is built on letters and words cut out like a ransom note. [Durham claims that Sussman lied to then- FBI counsel James Baker but Baker says he can’t remember if Sussman mentioned his clients.](https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/30/politics/durham-subpoenas-probe-russia-fbi-sussman/index.html) But the interesting part is that by focusing on the activities of Sussman, it brings the camera back to the connection to Alfa Bank that was running in Trump Tower. Also, it turns out that someone was operating a Russian smartphone out of the Whitehouse. > [@Raw Story](#): > > And the report noted the Alfa Bank server traffic was not the only thing discovered and taken to the federal government. > > “Their other set of concerns centered on data suggesting that a YotaPhone — a Russian-made smartphone rarely seen in the United States — had been used from networks serving the White House, Trump Tower and Spectrum Health, a Michigan hospital company whose server had also interacted with the Trump server,” the newspaper reported. “Mr. Sussmann relayed their YotaPhone findings to counterintelligence officials at the C.I.A. in February 2017, the people said. It is not clear whether the government ever investigated them.” > > The newspaper also reported on how the Pentagon helped discover the traffic. > > “The involvement of the researchers traces back to the spring of 2016. Darpa, the Pentagon’s research funding agency, wanted to commission data scientists to develop the use of so-called DNS logs, records of when servers have prepared to communicate with other servers over the internet, as a tool for hacking investigations,” the newspaper reported. “Darpa identified Georgia Tech as a potential recipient of funding and encouraged researchers there to develop examples.” > > While sifting through the data, Lorenzen “noticed an odd pattern: a server called [mail1.trump-email.com](http://mail1.trump-email.com) appeared to be communicating almost exclusively with servers at Alfa Bank and Spectrum Health.” **[NYT link (paywalled)](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/30/us/politics/trump-alfa-bank-indictment.html)** **[Raw Story link (no paywall)](https://www.rawstory.com/trump-alfa/)** Spectrum Health is connected to Trump Education Secretary Betsy De Vos’ family. You’ll recall that Betsy’s brother is Erik Prince, of private mercenary companay Blackwater/Academi fame. Prince, as I’m sure you remember, was one of the people working to set up back channel communications between the Trump admin and the Putin admin. The researchers who uncovered the Trump communications with Alfa Bank stand by their research. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/55 "2021-09-30T21:38:31Z")
You mean because I didn’t run around with my hair on fire yelling that Hillary was going to jail? And just how disappointed were Democrats by the failure of Mueller to get anyone significant in the Trump orbit? This could all turn out to be nothing, and I wouldn’t be surprised. Or it could turn into a massive deal. I’m just watching with interest, reporting the facts and waiting to see what happens. If all of it were true, it would be bigger than Watergate. But I doubt it will go anywhere near Hillary herself. If there are more indictments, I would expect them to be other lawyers, maybe a low level tech or something. That’s how these things usually go. The admission in the article that Durham has all the billing records is interesting. As I said before, my understanding is that those are privileged unless you can convince a judge that the law firm or lawyer is engaged in potential criminal activity, not just the client. But I’m not a lawyer, so maybe I’m missing something. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/56 "2021-09-30T21:40:43Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > But the interesting part is that by focusing on the activities of Stossman, it brings the camera back to the connection to Alfa Bank that was running in Trump Tower. Wait… You still think the Alfa Bank story was legit? I take it you didn’t read the linked articles. That was debunked about a week after it first appeared. The supposed DNS trail used as evidence was bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/57 "2021-09-30T21:47:31Z")
The Trump team claimed it was debunked. It wasn’t. Subsequent events have demonstrated how much faith we should put on Trump’s lawyers’ grasp of reality. As I said, the researchers stand by their results. But hey - let’s take that to court. I think we should have a vigorous and thorough investigation into the connection between Trump Tower, De Vos’ Spectrum Health and Alfa Bank. I hope Merrick Garland’s DoJ gets to the filthy, stinking, root of it all. Keep digging, Durham. Please proceed. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/58 "2021-09-30T21:52:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And just how disappointed were Democrats by the failure of Mueller to get anyone significant in the Trump orbit? I suppose Fox News missed these: > **[All of Robert Mueller’s indictments and plea deals in the Russia investigation](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/mueller-indictments-grand-jury)** > > The investigation is now complete. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/59 "2021-09-30T21:56:44Z")
Did you just forget about all the indictments, guilty pleas, and ultimately, pardons? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/60 "2021-09-30T22:04:57Z")
If you’re pardoned for lying to the FBI, it’s like you never lied to the FBI!!! “No collusion!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215.md?page=4)